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Child Support Agency routinely breaching the human rights of fathers

In a robust judgement sure to cause consternation, the Court of Appeal has condemned the Child Support Agency (CSA) for “obnoxious” and “unreasonable” legal failings in threatening fathers with jail without giving them the right to defend themselves.

Sitting with the Lords Justice Patten and Richards, Lord Justice Ward said: “The procedures adopted do not comply with the rights to a fair trial and were flawed.”

This was a test case, brought by a group of solicitors and barristers to establish whether the standard working practices of the CSA breached the rights of fathers under Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights.  Article 6 protects the right to a fair trial within a reasonable time frame, the presumption of innocence until guilt is proven and similar legal rights.

The appeal was focused on two fathers under scrutiny by the CSA for alleged non-payment of child maintenance: Christopher Gibbons who was appealing against a prison sentence of 21 days, suspended for 11 years and Kambiz Karoonian of Ormskirk, appealing against a suspended sentence of 42 days. The CSA claims that Mr Karoonian owes more than £10,000 in child maintenance arrears but he denies this.
Amongst other criticisms, Lord Justice Ward said the wording of court summons sent to the two men had wrongly implied that they bore responsibility for proving that they did not owe the money claimed, thereby reversing the traditional legal burden of proof, when it is up to the accuser to prove their claims.

The Latin expression sometimes used to define the concept of  ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is: Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof lies with who declares, not who denies).

Lord Justice Ward said the ruling had been made with “considerable reluctance” and in the full knowledge that it could “emasculate” the CSA’s ability to extract money from recalcitrant fathers.

Stephen Lawson, a child support specialist who helped to bring the test case, welcomed the ruling:

“I hope this ruling will now end the unjust practice of non-resident parents, usually fathers, being jailed or threatened with jail without the opportunity to defend themselves properly. Parents may have heard nothing from the CSA for many years and then suddenly out of the blue they receive a demand for thousands of pounds. Many are simply unable to pay and are met with an application to put them in prison or disqualify them from driving.”

He added:

“In another recent case, a father was arrested, taken to court and sent to prison all on the same day, with no opportunity to challenge the evidence against him. The CSA has been sending summons notices through the post, often to an old address, so this has led to some parents being tracked down and arrested, knowing nothing of the court proceedings. And the onus has been on the parent to prove why he shouldn’t be sent to prison, which reversed the traditional burden of proof. Th[is] ruling means the burden of proof, the serving of summons notices and disclosure of documents will now be improved to a level similar to criminal proceedings – which is only fair if people are threatened with the ultimate sanction of imprisonment.”

No one will be surprised to hear that the Department for Work and Pensions is unhappy with the judgement. A spokesman said:

“It is extremely disappointing that parents who have flouted their legal responsibility to financially support their children have invoked the Human Rights Act to seek to continue to do so.”

Perhaps – but if this judgement is correct, hasn’t the CSA flouted its legal responsibilities too?

The spokesman added:

“Regrettably, we need every enforcement measure at our disposal to ensure the minority of irresponsible parents pay for their children.‪ It is important to stress that this judgement does not question the legality of bringing parents who repeatedly refuse to pay for their children to the attention of magistrates, who can then decide whether to send them to prison. We will of course consider any other implications of this judgement carefully and take the appropriate action.”

The department is now thought to be considering an appeal to the Supreme Court.

This result is bound to please fathers’ rights groups as well as many readers of this blog. We receive receive hundreds of enquiries every year about the CSA.

The picture painted by Stephen Lawson is an undeniably unpleasant one. The casual reversal of that most fundamental of legal principles , the burden of proof, suggests that the CSA has occasionally behaved more like the secret police in a dictatorship than the arm of a parliamentary democracy. And clearly the Court of Appeal found the arguments convincing.

Nevertheless, as much as many would like it, we must resist the temptation to paint all non-resident fathers as victims. As any family lawyer will confirm, there is no shortage in this world of fathers who cannot or will not do the right thing by their children, nor of single mothers in need. Some form of government intervention in the child maintenance process is unavoidable.

Ironically, this judgement comes just as the government begins to wind down the CSA and transfer its responsibilities to the new  Child Maintenance Service. It seems the CSA is destined to die as it lived: in the midst of controversy.

The blog team at Stowe is a group of writers based across our family law offices who share their advice on the wellbeing and emotional aspects of divorce or separation from personal experience. As well as pieces from our family law solicitors, guest contributors also regularly contribute to share their knowledge.

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  1. William T says:

    I would like to know where is the enforcement of Contact Orders?
    Mothers get away with murder when flouting contact orders. My ex owes me thousands of hours of contact time, yet there isn’t even a whiff of interest or concern from the ‘authorities’. I have even tried to enforce things through the courts. They couldn’t have been more dismissive, almost laughing in my face with smug comments about ‘cannot touch the mother’.
    Yet the hugely discreditable CSA will hunt down a man for every penny they, usually erroneously, think he should owe. A hugely destructive course of conduct ruining businesses, livelihoods and relationships.
    The DWP should extract their ill-witted heads from their pompous backsides and wake up to the gross imbalance off justice that they ‘support’ and oversee on a daily basis.

    • Rosaya says:

      My ex partner lied to his GP that hes suicidal so that he can sign on and get put on incapacity benefit, and not pay maintenance. He also changed his name. I have not had one penny in 14 yrs, and he refuses to see his only child because she is a girl and he wanted a boy. The crap that we mothers have to put up with because of vindictive, twisted ex partners is horrendous. I should be the one on sickness benefit, he gave me a breakdown. He works cash in hand and has a very good life.

      • Stitchedup says:

        I wouldn’t be so quick to discount suicidal thoughts. Men are far more likely to contemplate suicide than women. Here’s a link to a guardian article, a left wing feminist publication not known for its fair treatment of men, bit even they recognise it is a gender issue:
        What the Guardian doesn’t appear to recognise is that divorce and separation, losing regular contact with children, losing the majority of your assets and being forced by the courts to start all over again at the age of 40 or 50 is one of the main causes of suicide in men. They talk about the recession causing an increase in the rate of suicides, but we all know that divorce and separation increase during recession as men who were previously good providers are routinely ditched, skipped and cashed-in by their wives and partners; as the saying goes “When poverty comes in at the door, love flies out of the window”.
        Here’s a link to a CBS article that gives some more insight. It is an American article put the same issues apply in the UK:

        • JamesB says:

          Not only starting over again, but starting over again and paying maintenance at the same time which leaves the ability to obtain a decent life (or property) massively diminished.
          Before the CSA at least it was possible to get a clean-break, now lawyers and Judges will glibly advise nrp’s that a clean break is not possible and that they need to give everything up that they have worked for and that it is for the best. Not right or fair I think, maybe if the bloke had done something wrong, but where a woman (or man) is at fault and is tired of the other they shouldn’t be rewarded by the CSA or anyone else, without the consent of the other person. That the law does this isn’t right or fair. Women moving boyfriend in and the father of the kids to pay to be disenfranchised of everything, including his children is bad.

          • H. Hawks says:

            Why would you want a ‘clean break?’ The parent left with all the child responsibilities & financial responsibilities doesn’t get a clean break! It’s looking like the CSA will only be able to make my ex pay me £7 per week for 2 children?????!!!!!!!! Meanwhile my ex can live a near-batchelor life-style with no responsibilities…..yet I am broke, on benefits & REALLY struggling to make ends meet. When a couple with children separate or divorce ALL essential expenses for the children ( i.e. food, clothing & a percentage of the bills) should be split 50/50. DOES ANYONE AGREE WITH THIS?….THE LAW NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.

          • Yvie says:

            I agree that both parents should pay equally towards the upkeep of their children. However, when marriages break down there are usually two homes to support and finances aren’t infinite. Both sets of bills need to be taken into account, not just the mothers.

          • Tracey says:

            My son is the same he can’t get any help at all from anywhere it’s lucky I and his dad is hear to help him of he would be on the streets and the csa don’t gave a dame they hounded my son he went so low at one point I thought he was going to do something to him self my self and hubby are working just to help him out its disgusting the women get the help the fathers are always left out.

          • JamesB says:

            I will re-write my first sentence again for you to make it clearer.
            Not only starting over again, but starting over again with nothing after losing the vast bulk of the assets in divorce, paying off the lawyers, and then paying maintenance on-going on top of that, being ‘punished’ twice and on-going over and over for the same ‘crime’ of wanting a family with a woman they didn’t know would leave them. The ability to obtain a decent life (or property) massively diminished with taking no assets from the settlement and a reduced income after maintenance.
            The woman on divorce will get the bulk of the assets with children and that was the clean breaks that used to happen which I was referring to. The man loses everything he has built, but has the opportunity to start again and learn from the experience, under current law he doesn’t have this opportunity as he will have to pay in addition each and every month which gives him difficulty re-building. Hence why there are so many males on the streets.

          • Aandy says:

            I,m just starting the long process of dealing with the new Child Maintenance Service. as NRP you are all right.
            As my first calculated payment goes in to a account 02/01/2015, set up by my Ex, she has already spoken to the CMS and sent me an e- mail stating if I did not pay she will inform the CMS and request collect and pay where fees are added typically 20% paid by me and 4% reduced for her.. As a Civil servant, working in the environments the government has pushed all costs on to the paying parent. Thus no costs to the CMS. Supprise supprise.
            Having now delt with the CMS there is no change from the OLD CSA, just re named and branded.
            The point to all this is yes the NRP is slaughterd by the CMS what ever he says to the CMS just gets thrown in the bin but the PWC( Parent with care) gets all the help she or he needs just cries a bit more. You can request Special Expenses variation form, this included various costs met by the NRP, In short you complete the form and submitt then for and no reason when you havent heard nothing from the CMS, that it was rejected, so on so, again the Father is dissregarded in this matter. In short you are all right in my case my Ex who is a complete idiot earnd more than me livingn in the joint owned, 4 bedroomed house still is, whilst claiming all relevant benefits as she chooses only to work part time.. and so on you get the picture. In addition to all this paying half the mortgage as dont want to be black listed as in future will or if can get a property but again I have to prove to the CMS that I am paying the mortgage . In my case no increase in salary, will have to get a second job within the HMRC rules as CMS will take additional money as( 25% allowable) increase in wages so does the payment to my Ex, so in short no win situation..
            I do however and read that if you had a “career break”, no wages were gained then a” Nil” payment is noted to the Ex. In addition, if you worked for yourself and made no or very little Gross income then again little to pay… there are loopholes to this, if you are PAYE you are an easy accountable figure to calculate…. I could go on for ages on this subject but all I can say is all fathers whether it was there fault or the Ex,s fault you pay in the end.. I have to pay £516.84 every month £118.00 per week for my two children, I say every month when the CMS calculated mine they say to be paid on the dates indicated when you work it out it 4 weekly is a month or when the CMS work it out it is 52 weeks of the year but want you to pay the calculated amount which dosent add up… not allowed to challenge this as I will be seen as causing trouble but all the CMS say they are working towards a better settlement for both parties. I dissagree just like the MP’S in charge, tell you one thing then do somthing else.. heres the crap to it all youngest daughter is 6 years old now you have a liability till they reach 20 years old if in full time education so another 14 years of £516.84 pm times by 12 gives a yearly amount of £6200 times by 14 gives you £86.800. nice isn’t it to pay for your ex life style and some I assume goes to the children and by the way I pay at weekends for them on top as leisure activities…double whammy.
            I wish I could start a legal challenge but with so much againsed it, the costs to get nowhere are stacked againsed me.

          • Leo says:

            Hi Andy. Lets get everyone in this situation and protest. Is a must to teach them a lesson to all these “life vandals” that are getting away with it. I will definetely wait a bit an will counter claim for all these people that are backed up by these agencies. I shall write to European Union for the massive breach of Human rights, damaging our kids for the rest of their life and in the same time as well as breaching our rights to start of a new life. I have already gathered lots of articles and legal letters against the inhuman treatment of fathers in this country and to sum it up to the men in general… My child is last in the school just because her mum has money to go clubing weekends with other men sleeping night time with them next to my child bedroom. I have videos of my child admitting that… shame on these charlatans that by crying, agencies are backing them up….WHy???

          • Ann-Marie says:

            “When a couple with children separate or divorce ALL essential expenses for the children ( i.e. food, clothing & a percentage of the bills) should be split 50/50. DOES ANYONE AGREE WITH THIS?….THE LAW NEEDS TO BE CHANGED”
            You cannot possibly be serious in saying this?? How would a NRP be able to afford a place to live if he was paying you 50% of all the expenses you incur??
            I am a woman too with an absent father (he does pay but not much) so I am all for fathers paying for their children but seriously, your suggestion is ludicrous!!!

          • Honour says:

            How about the women who live on benefits, Live with a partner who earns a fortune and shouldn’t live at the address and live a Millionaire lifestyle, Yet forget to let the Father who they claim against see the child ?? The Csa have acted illegally that’s why they are winding the service up before some solicitor or very rich parent with some time on his hands decides to challenge this illegal set up

          • Dan says:

            Yes 50/50 split including access if it is possible.
            The problem is enforcing this.
            All It Takes is one to start straying from the order and the games begin. …no access, no payments etc etc.
            If both parties knew there were penalties for not complying that would be enforced it would be more likely to work.

          • Leo says:

            Hi there. When i see that fathers are tarnished by these CSA or other scammers and the Government turns blind to all these problems it makes us sick. I too have an ex and altough she is milking anyone that comes into her way is unbelievable… She was asking me for cash only for our daughter ( now 13 yrs old) as she was afraid that the council will catch her. She was caiming benefits while working as self emplyed as nanny…and that was for around 7 – 8 years until last year when she was placed in a Council house. She has been sending money to Poland for many years while i live wuth my mum… She brainwashed the childs mind in believing that i am the bad one and not to trust me or my familly. We did not marry and that is the best thing i have done. Marriage seems to be an opportunity for some to get money…losing everything else. Given a little bit of time and everyone will have their “video of life” in front of them. Answers will have to be given…and mark my words here people….noobody will be able to lie. Everything will be revelead. If anyone thought that is tougher than others think again…

          • Stephen rampley says:

            I agree entirely with your report, ihave recently had a attachment of earnings however I have had no correspondence with the CFA going back to February 2011, it was a phone call and then the order was put through, feeling totally demoralised, dejected and probably even suicidal
            Respectfully, stephen

        • HKDay says:

          Does anyone know the outcome of this hearing? My partner is being hounded by csa, he lost everything and isn’t allowed to see his daughter and hasn’t done for 3yrs, she took everything and wants more!! I’m a woman but seriously this is such an unfair system on you fathers :/

          • Not allowed to see my sons! says:

            Every nrp has a responsibility to their children…but some nrp’s have that cruely snatched from them by the ex. As far as i am concerned… if you got my house (mortgage free coz i paid it) and you dont let me spend time with my boys… then i owe you nothing…whats more…i owe the government nothing!!

        • lewy says:

          Just want to say that it isn’t always the fathers who get away with non payment. I am the father of three daughters and was granted custody of them when my ex wife walked out. My case with CSA is ongoing, has been for 11 years now. She has changed her name and ignores all correspondence. I am owed thousands and yet she is living it up in London somewhere. No one knows of her actual income or whereabouts.. So for now I just keep waiting for CSA to catch her.

        • Amber says:

          I think the Csa and child matanance service is appalling my partner had a one night stand with an obsessive girl that is insane and obsessed with him. She kept the child to trap him. She has given up the child twice and had them removed from her through social services and given to anthor family member but she now has them back at the time she rang the service up told them my partner earns 24 grand a year which is false information and they was taking £185 a week off my partner leaving me and our 2 children with nothing as they took his weekly wages when my partner had already requested a DNA TEST the information has been sent to the service and just put on the computer and egnored. So in the process of this I nearly lost my home feel very depressed and was putting a strain on mine and my partners relationship. When this girl does nothing but party every weekend takes drugs and is doing it because she is spiteful and doesn’t like the fact he didn’t want her in the first place. I don’t see how there is any justice for any father that had been in my partners situation I think it’s disgusting. So now my family is falling apart because we can’t legally and financially afford to be together. And she’s allowed to keep all her benefits and carry on what she’s doing and getting away with it. I don’t c how this benefits anyone.

          • With held says:

            We are in the same situation! 12 years ago myself and my partner were going through a rocky patch he stupidly got targeted by a girl who by all accounts through herself at him and was apparently obsessed by him which led to a one night stand a drunken decision he desperately regrets. This girl ended up pregnant but decided to tell us about the baby 2 months before we got married by this time the child was 1. As you can imagine I was distraught he was devastated and the way he saw it she stole his sperm on that night holding on to the fact he would of run into her arms so they could raise a little family but it back fired big time on her. He told her he would never want anything to do with her or her child and that as he never wanted the child he would never acknowledge her. She said after the night in question she had been trying to find him even contacting family members of ours through social media to destroy us. It turns out she’s on every benefit available and is just a drain on society. We have been forced to pay for this child now through CSA for the last 5 years how can this be right taking £220 a month off our family to give to some child that my husband had no say on being brought into this world just because the crazed mother was simply thinking of what she could get out of it! Unfortunately my husband lost his job with a well known firm Christmas Day he phoned CSA to let them know if he can’t afford to feed his own 4 children he definitely won’t pay for anyone else’s. But even though we have no money to pay it hasn’t stopped letters every other day for demands of thousands of pounds where they get there figures from I never know! What about how the situation effects us and our family don’t we have rights this is causing stress to us and our children. If a woman decides to keep a child from a one night stand she conceived it she carried it she should bloody well look after it!

          • DEBORAH HOWARD says:

            she “stole his sperm??” what planet do you live on, regardless of how the child was conceived the child is his and he should pay,sorry if this is not what you want to hear but seriously have you reread your post, if so you should feel like an idiot. I too am chasing my ex for payment after 14 years ive received nothing and i dont claim any benefits. to say why should he pay for a child that was not wanted in the first place is not the point her you silly woman and to take somebody back after he got somebody else pregnant…you need your head examined

          • RG says:

            DEBORAH HOWARD:
            My long term partner was “on the pill” apparently. She still fell pregnant, thrice, kept the first, aborted the second, kept the third all without taking my opinion into consideration. I begged her not to have the children but she did anyway, against my will. In the modern age there is no reason what so ever for an accidental pregnancy but people like you still use the old “keep it in your pants” cliche! Women know this and use it to their advantage, once they are pregnant the man is up the creek without a paddle. My current long term (11 years) partner is on the pill, we’ve never even had a close call! My ex entrapped me and now she reaps the benefits… Another thing… I’ve not met a ONE SINGLE MOTHER that “pays for their children” all the ones I’ve met claim benefits so in effect, as a tax payer, I’m already “paying for my children” and E V E R Y O N E else’s too!

          • D says:

            Omg you judgemental clearly spiteful xxxxx , have some compassion for all the victims in any situation such as often what you read and think can be interpreted by another completely different , ever heard this “don’t judge a book by it’s cover” or maybe “read between the lines” stupidity , lack of understanding is clearly the only real point you have made… Put yourself in this stressed woman’s shoes if you have the ability / knowledge/ even experience to do, try being a third party for one , it’s a far harder place to be as you are punished for others mistakes and often insulted by the crap treatment given by others- the likes of you , I did read her post and did interpret it completely different her sperm stealing comment may have meant his sperm meant more then the man himself, when woman /men have to deal with people such as you whom are only capable of putting themselves first forget everyone else ( often neglecting even their own child and as in this poor woman’s situation hers , no infer she’s stressed, when I met my dyslexic hubby we both had kids from a previous partner both were adulterers and abusive who were happy to let us work pay it all, I was fortunate to keep both my home and my child contented in her home, however I had to fight this and pay a higher proportion to do so, he basically was rewarded for every unfair abusive thing done, I and my hubby a few years alone the road out of the blue CSA debt for years ( from birth) of false unpaid maintenance the youngest was 6 when they seperated ??? Remember this dyslexic unaware father had paid the lot, I lost my own home due to their actions we lost both jobs home dignity and the ability to enjoy life as a result, not to mention a huge CSA debt , our dignity our family is now having to live seperate my hubby cannot give anything to us as he is paying £150 a week for a sperm stealers other 2 kids his now adults the 2 a result of her adultery , now for the double whammy ” I couldn’t accept a measly £20000 surplus leftover money from the sale of my house a house I had brought long before his 2 kids with ex and our 2 still dependent age were even born, I was Stupid at that time for being depressed and knowingly not collecting the insultive amount as I know it would or could of sent me over the edge, CSA jump in took it ( I should have contested) if I had known, try fighting this if u happen to be the third party it’s a joke the way parents look out for the kids CSA are aware that money has been wrongly taken I have to fight this Why? Any ideas help of how I can do so pls thx the stupid one of all ” PLAY THE SYSTEM ” my advice I didn’t and I’m worse off then

          • Pmcg says:

            Completely disagree.
            The fact of entrapment is well known and should not be so casually discounted.
            The law should be changed so that fathers can apply for ‘financial abortion’ie if the mother is not prepared to terminate an unwanted pregnancy then she should accept full financial responsibility for the child.
            The basis on which the fathers contribution is currently ludicrous. 12% Of gross income takes no account of his situation is student loans, mortgages and/or children with present partner.
            Why should he pay 12% of a potentially rising salary for the mother to receive tax free with no reduction against her benefits and providing no incentive for her to establish some form of self sufficiency.
            The current situation is a joke and it is the mothers that are laughing!!

        • Garry Clarkson says:

          Typical family law double think here; “fathers who cannot or will not do the right thing by their children, nor of single mothers in need” fundamentally morally and legally flawed. Expect more from solicitors. What about mother’s who don’t contribute (there are thousands of them). Once a marriage breakdown There are single fathers and single mothers. The whole neologism of Children Act saying one thing “paramountcy principle’ and then inventing false dichotomies of NRP and RP is close to Nazism. I am a single father (and resident parent). Having to spend 20 grand to institute this and I receive zero maintenance for 14 years. When I call the CSA press office I am told that this situation does not exist and that only one percent of their ‘clients’ are mothers.. I am living it. It phenomenology exists.

          • Dan says:

            I’m in agreement with accidental pregnancy.
            Why oh why should a man be forced to maintain a baby if it is a woman’s soLe decision to keep.
            The likely hood is all decision making will be made by the mother in future and the man will be forced to contribute with no input into that life.
            It does allow a route for a more devious type of person to abus the system. The current system is far to black and white and needs to rethought on behalf of men an women

          • JamesB says:

            That it took over 3 years and so many posts before Godwin’s law was proved on this discussion illustrates just how people are really fed up with this CSA/CMEC/CMS nonsense and not on a superficial but at a cultural spiritual and rational level and that politicians ignore them with the exception of the UKIP indicate just how detached and unrepresentative politicians have become from those they claim to represent.

          • Paul says:

            Completely agree.
            Something should be done to prevent incentive on mothers to be simply exploiting the law as it stands.
            My son has been caught out by a girlfriend who despite being on the pill contrived to get pregnant and now will not terminate.
            She already has her sites on benefits,council flat and 12% of my sons future earnings and he hasn’t even graduated from university yet!

          • Paul mcglade says:

            Completely agree.
            Furthermore why should fathers payment be 12% of gross earnings – regardless of how much he earns, or what his own commitments are.

        • David says:

          Child maintenance and the clumsy manner in which it is applied is abhorrent. I have faced the best part of 15 years now, unable to move forward – every spare penny I have going to child maintenance. The reward for this? Parental alienation (and please witness just how inadequate the law is in this area). So now I find myself pouring money into a remarried family, where my children have been taught by her and husband that I am some nasty, violent character – no evidence for this whatsoever – having outgoings greater than that which comes in, and now having to pay a Kings Ransom in legal, social work and psychologist fees in a bid to restore my relationship with my children. The family justice system is a disgrace from top to bottom. Financial hardship, bankruptcy and destruction of life is the end result of family law for many Fathers.
          The emotive “its for your children arguments” no longer wash with me and anyone who raises them will be politely told where to get off. The child maintenance system should a) properly assess the financial position of fathers in order to determine what they can afford b) provide a mechanism that demonstrates that the money goes to benefit children c) the resident parent i.e. the woman – should also have to be transparent about her financial circumstances. d) judgement of payments should then be made accordingly. e) When the resident parents circumstances change i.e. the get married, bring a partner in and so forth, then reassessment should take place.
          In addition it should be known that the majority of Fathers want a good relationship with their children. The family justice system sets about destroying this in every way possible. Limiting time, treating innocent Fathers like villains and destroying them financially. Throw in a a financial crisis, an incompetent government, stagnant wages and rapidly rising costs, then the first thought that enters many Father’s mind when they wake up is of the damned futility of their efforts. We go from being model members of society to people who become deeply alienated, living on the fringe of society lacking confidence in it of itself and trust people.
          The bottom line is that child maintenance has the potential to destroy Father’s lives and indeed it does, millions of them. Unhappy, suicidal, depressed Fathers are not good for their children or for their wider family. Practitioners in the family law system who are not campaigning for change are all guilty of enabling this system, are all ripping off the people who come to them needing help.
          As it stands, if the facts are presented as they are, any man is an absolute fool to have children with a woman in the UK. Family law is predominantly staffed by women who predominantly think and act in a manner that best affects women, I know I have sat enough solicitors offices testing opinion. Fathers are the lightning conductor for lazy, prejudicial thinking, clumsy law and ineffective, inappropriate process and procedure. The emotive arguments no longer wash. Tremendous damage is being caused to the non-resident side of families by the collective, brainless actions of the family law industry at large.
          Prejudicial actions can also be seen in the wider actions of the State. When it is convenient for the State, you are a Father when inconvenient i.e. you might just need some help yourself, you are not.
          Family law is state sanctioned brutality. One where women get the entire apparatus of the state behind them, where Father’s get no compassion and where the ultimate losers are not just the Fathers but the children themselves.

          • Stitchedup says:

            Well put, couldn’t agree more.

          • David says:

            It makes you mad doesn’t it? Increasingly, I feel the need to abide by my principles and stick two fingers up to the system as a whole – including the bloody courts send me to jail, I don’t have to deal with baliffs there. That we have these lawyers, family mediators (what a gravy train that is) chucking out there £2-300 p.h bills for often average service within such a prejudicial system while propping up this crap with statements like “It’s not that bad” or nonsense rhetoric that only the likes of Boris Johnson could come up with “The courts act in the best interest of the children”. No they bloody don’t they act in the best interests of the extreme myopic feminists who created it. Don’t get me wrong I am all for equality, but let’s get this particularly important, close to the heart situation in order before we start looking at the wider picture of equality.
            Just leads me to think “Well your intellect isn’t that great either Mrs”, if that is the best way you can respond to this shitbag of a system.. So why the big fees?
            Bottom line today – raise your boys to recognise the folly of marriage, raise your girls the opposite way. Hardly the progress the feminists were after surely?

        • Mark says:

          So under the child support act if the CMS has to collect payments. The NRP gets charged 20% and the PWC 4%…….erm…arent all parties suppoesed to be treated equally under common law? Im surprised a lawyer or solicitor hasnt challenged this…oh yeah…i forgot…the law society, citizens advice, the institute of payroll professionals, gingerbread are all stakeholders in the company trading as the CMS. Yes…thats correct this agency are a profit making company with ccjs listed against them. They have no legal or financial licence but offer both legal advice and financial advice..btw it is a criminal offence to impersonate a solicitor….

      • Mark says:

        GP’s not hand out sick notes willy nilly to people they don’t know for sure are unfit for work due to illness both physical and mental as they have nothing to gain/lose. The very point he’s made no effort to see his chip and has changed his name to me sounds like he’s not right in the head. As for working cash in hand DWP are catching virtually 100% specially those having “a good life” and living far beyond their declared income (I believe its around £70-£90 per week depending what stage he’s at) I’m not implying anything about you whatsoever but there’s a significant chunk of Mothers specially with a partner on good money working full time are not happy until they see their ex working 60 hour weeks 6 days a week who cant afford to eat everyday and each week making a 20-30 mile bike ride (40-60 mile round trip) to go to a contact centre the mother often doesn’t turn up to and the courts do jack. There are Fathers who’re emotionally detached and due to mental illness which the majority goes undiagnosed its likely these people are unknowingly mentally ill. As you spread know the situation swings both ways and for every story of a father not wanting to see his children there’s two of fathers living in abject poverty in a bed sit working stupid hours yet cant afford to eat and even though with holding access for no good PROVEN reason not just the mothers word as because of increase in cctv numerous Mothers have been caught in secluded areas getting a friend to give them a kicking who them go to Police. Even when cctv has proven their lie they usually remain anonymous too with papers reporting “a woman” laws that allow women to check on their new partners history (which by the way I’m totally for specially why you’re a single Mother as protection of your kids is paramount) for domestic violence/sex offender, paedophile etc should also be available to the male if she’s been caught doing things with the potential to wreck a mans life. I do think there should be compulsive mediation other then when real issues have happened that are not she said/he said then maybe maintenance and with holding access will not become weapons for each parent but the CSA from its creation to its dying years and the welfare state rewarding single mothers who’re increasingly getting totally ridiculous amounted of money if the Father had a good job as now Mother can claim full income support, housing/council tax benefit and a couple of thousand a month in maintenance that doesn’t affect any benefit payments and when they find a different partner also with a good job they enjoy multiple holidays abroad per year all paid for by the childs Father with rent etc paid by DWP. What makes this worse is its becoming disgustingly common although in todays society misandry is so common take house of parliament by example, David Cameron the Prime Minister suggested to stop naming people charged with sex crime until guilt is proven by Jury. The usual man hating Harriet Harmon MP (LAB) Immediately said how disgusted she was and starting quoting numbers of women raped every year than didn’t report it (if this was for any other crime she would’ve been laughed at for giving such approx numbers of an unreported crime, how can she know if its un reported?) the Conservative MPs began the assault on their own leader along with a few male MPs terrified of being called a misogynist if they do not agree when I’m reality theyre agreeing with misandry that growing larger day by day. Since inception of feminist movement the creator of the first battered wives/girlfriend refuge has had death threats, even threats against her family from feminists when she declared in the 70s 70% of women in the refuge were as violent if not more so than the husband/partner they left which indicated there’s need to be a 50/50 split to help all domestic violence victims. Since then its growing even worse as misandry is that accepted in modern life nobody even knows the word for it!! For some time the tipping point is teetering on a knife edge threateng to come crashing down at which point even most liberal people will agree to actually have equalist this blatant target off men throughout the west where its still seen as funny on TV shows where a woman beats a men which is repeated in real life when I wife kicks the shit out of her husband who manages to get to the phone to call Police and ambulance. In the short time before its arrival she beats herslf even going as far as stabbing herself and 100% of the time the man will be arrested! Welcome to Weatern misandry..

        • DEBORAH HOWARD says:

          single mums on full benefits keeping thousands a month in maintenance payments? I think you will find that they keep hardly anything as nearly all of it is deducted from the amount they receive. If they were allowed to keep it everybody would be doing it and it would be a national scandal. I do agree that the law is more biased towards the mother though but don’t tar everybody with the same brush when it comes to single parents, I for one don’t claim any benefits apart from child benefit which most people get (apart from the high earners who earn about 50k plus) I work fulltime,pay my own rent whilst my ex has not paid maintenance for 14 years….now thats a scandal

          • RG says:

            Not any more. My ex gets to keep almost 3K per month in benefits and the 500 odd quid I pay.. What I pay does not effect her benefits at all!

          • Paul mcglade says:

            Please check your facts before posting.
            Maintenance under the case does NOT effect the mothers benefits one jot!

          • kaz says:

            you get to keep all your benefits now as well as all the child maintenance nothing is deducted.. so you could say some women are on a good old screw….

          • JamesB says:

            I agree with Deborah that aring everyone with the same brush is the problem and what makes the csa / cmec / cms / whatever they are called not good but very bad.

      • Lou Lou says:

        I get really sick of the endless whine from ex-husbands that they have to actually support their children. How do they think the children are supported? My ex has never paid a penny – and the CSA can’t do a thing about it since the removal of the ability to threaten him with jail. The children and I have lived in abject poverty, while he is a company director, and jets around the world living the high life. We are just about to be evicted, and can’t find anywhere else to live. Because my youngest daughter is now 17 (one of three) we are not eligible for emergency housing, and because we have always been so poor, I have a terrible credit rating and can’t find anywhere else. He owes us £20,000, having left and moved in with someone else when the youngest was six months old. We face life on the streets. I had already sold everything apart from our beds, except sentimental objects like photographs, etc – now we will even lose those, and we will also lose our family dog and cat. The money he owes would enable us to find somewhere to live. So all you men whining that you actually have to care that your child is fed and housed, and you second-partners who hate it that his kids actually matter, need to zip it. You are scum, the lot of you.

      • Johnny says:

        Good for him, you get enough of the government, bet you got a free house to.

      • Seamus O'Neill says:

        Different people have different stories. I can see why you are upset and rightly so. I am having to pay over £600 a month for my kids on an salary that is based on £7K more than I actually make. Plus they get a family allowance and the total between the 2 is around £750 a month, where is their share coming from. My kids stay with me every 26 nights a year so on those days I am paying double as I get no discount, my ex is shacked up with a partner who pays less for his kids AND gets a 15% discount because he claims he pays towards my kids and doesn’t, he also does not want to see his kids and I have been fighting for over a year to see more of mine (my ex had the them to lie to the Police, Social and the Dr about me assaulting them and I could have landed in jail, she lied to her Dr, she lied to charities, she lied to the kids school, you name it, she has done it) they spent over a year planning the whole thing, we have told the court and they do nothing even though there are witnesses … so as you can see it’s not just mothers who have to put up with it. I am being screwed by the CMS and the judicial system, I cannot afford any appliances for my kitchen since they broke, no washing machine, no fridge. More is needing done for both our situations, not just yours and not just mine as it looks like we are at different ends of the same scale but treated equally badly. I should say that I am happy to pay for my children but not under these circumstances, no wonder people either commit suicide or flip to the point where their anger is pushed beyond normality.

    • Lee Flatt says:

      Hi women play god with kids but hold there hands out like buggers in the street for are farthers csa payments I have paid 19 year for a child I have never seen or know I caught her mother cheating and didn’t know she was pregnant until contacted by the csa I did 3 dna test because she refused every time I eventually got one when the child was 7 year old the csa said I owe 7 thousand pound areas there back date from when the child was born my ex has put the child in the guys name she had itchy knickers for and I have recently been shown a picture of the child and it looks mix race so I think the csa sabotage dna tests to make it look like none potential fathers to look like the fathers

  2. Yvie says:

    It’s not about painting all non-resident fathers as victims. The methods used by the CSA are dispictable. Fathers are threatened with prison sentences, bailiffs, loss of driving licence irrespective of whether they have the ability to pay or not. Deduction of earnings notices are imposed on fathers at the drop of a hat. As long as the CSA get the money they do not care how they get it, even if it means putting a father into debt and risking his home. They say that the welfare of children is their paramount concern. Really – that surprises me as they have no means or interest in checking that child maintenance is actually spent on the children. If there was an element of fairness such as taking both incomes into account, there might be less resentment from the fathers who are more then willing to support their children, but less inclined to support their exes lifestyle, particularly when both parents work full time

    • Dan says:

      Yvie I agree.
      Both parties should be entitled to a standard of life.
      A man should not be paying £500 while living in squalor.
      In reverse a man should not be able to hide earning while a mother is lIving in squalor

    • Lou Lou says:

      Oh no! Imagine, someone getting into debt because of making sure his kids are fed and housed! Imagine him having to fear for his home! How terrible!
      How about seeing it as it is – that decent men WANT to provide for their children?

      • Stitchedup says:

        Oh no! Imagine having to get a job, or worst, having to get some qualifications so that you can get a decent job that pays a decent wage. Imagine the horror of having to contribute equally, and living in a more modest home so that the father can also have a roof over his head and accommodate the children when they visit. Imagine the unthinkable, that the father might actually get custody of the children and its you that don’t get to wake up with your kids in the morning and you’re forced to life in a rat invested bed sit so that he can live in relative luxury. Oh nooooooooo…..!!!!

        • Paul mcglade says:

          But what about the man who didn’t want a child to begin with but is faced with fatherhood because his (ex) partner won’t terminate – despite the fact she was on the pill.

      • James Partin says:

        Lou Lou, I rather fancy that you would see things differently if the roles were reversed. You know fine well the situation. Are you one of those people who live off the maintenance payments for yourself? Your comment is downright disgusting. yes decent men WANT to provide for their children but so SHOULD WOMEN and decent women WOULDNT WANT to screw them. You see how it is, if you had an ounce of sense you would realise that once a Father is ejected from his home, he would have no choice but to give up his work and people like you would get nothing to fund your lifestyle. If you cannot see equality then please keep your comments to yourself, I know for a fact, my psycho wife is not paying anything due to what is being done to me.

  3. JamesB says:

    NRPs = Scum.
    What a mess.
    Can we go back to how it was prior to the CSA please? Didn’t seem so bad. The elephant in the room (in your post) is that it doesn’t criticise women who get pregnant without the man’s consent and then expect hefty maintenance. Having gone through that I think a degree of measuring conduct is inevitable, not USSR type CSA which is doomed. So, think let’s go back to how it was before the CSA. That way this social issue can be taken away and we can get to the more important issue of council houses rather than Feminism, which has dominated politics for far too long in this count. Wow, I really mean that last point, soo strongly.

    • shelleyb says:

      Can you please explain to me how any woman can get pregnant without the man consenting?

      • JamesB says:

        By saying she was on the pill when she wasn’t. So, ‘forgetting’, or purposely not taking the pill and getting pregnant despite the man not wanting a child.
        When I asked my ex how she could get pregnant when she said she was on the pill, she said she stopped taking them as she wanted another child even though she knew I did not with her then and she did not have my consent or agreement.
        I hope that answers your query.
        Women are not always the innocent victims on this subject. Like Pakistani abuse they should also be open to scrutiny. The point I have been making is that to just blame the man on this subject is not right.
        If there were a male pill, then it would be less of an issue as would child support.

        • DEBORAH HOWARD says:

          never heard of a condom have we James?

          • RG says:

            Yes, we’ve all heard of condoms. We just mistakenly TRUST our other halves because strong relationships are built on trust and if my GF of 2 years tells me she’s on the pill I take her word for it!

          • Paul mcglade says:

            Totally agree.
            I am almost of a mind that women claiming to be on the pill and then refusing to terminate an ‘unwanted’ pregnancy should be sued for either negligence or damages!
            The cost to the male can quite easily top £100k just so the mother can satisfy her hormones!

        • D says:

          Maybe it should be law to ask first can we try for a baby , no won’t work one persons word against the other….. In reply to your Q morning after pill is readily available ….

      • JamesB says:

        A bit of a personal answer, but an honest one. I feel a bit silly writing it. It was written in answer to your query. It was written as to communicate and provide further understanding. As if men and women and the legislators on this subject had communicated better throughout then perhaps things would not be and would not have been so tricky / confused as they seem to be on this subject as per this thread and others like it and the people involved in these things like those involved with the csa.

      • Stitchedup says:

        By not taking contraception perhaps?
        When people have sex they don’t always plan to make a baby.

        • Lyn B says:

          Women (sadly) often see men as cash cows. My partners children were not wanted by him – his ex told him she was taking contraception and why should you not trust someone you were in a relationship with?

          • Lou Lou says:

            “Children”? So he had multiple children with this woman, did he? And he didn’t want them? He actually doesn’t care that they starve and live in terrible poverty, because – diddums! – it didn’t fit with his plans?
            Well, how about a vasectomy, or condoms, or not having sex?
            And what the hell does it have to do with you, anyway? What kind of person are you, that you actually want to live with someone who doesn’t care if his children suffer? Does it mess with your holiday plans?
            Here’s a thought – single mothers have to account for their children; any man they get with knows he is taking on baggage. The same applies to you. If you get with someone who has children – even if he bleats that he didn’t want them (which is truly vile) expect their needs to come before yours, every single time, in every single aspect of every single day, forever. It’s called “being a good parent.” If you don’t fancy that idea, they find someone who doesn’t have kids.

          • Stitchedup says:

            How do you ascertain that the children in question are living in poverty and starving??
            I think you’ll find there are large numbers of men who are denied contact with their children by the mother, possibly a bigger problem than fathers that refuse to support their children financially. Far too many mothers see fit to deny their children the emotional support that fathers and their families provide yet bleat on about money incessantly.

          • Tony O'Neill says:

            OMG. What rose coloured glasses you see the world through. You have been hard done by, I get that. but not every bloke out there is a T**T. I went to a party, while at the said party I had three pints of larger I went to sleep that night on a sofa, The next day got up and went home. Later that day some girl and her friend turn up at my house stating I had sex with her and wanting a relationship. Told her she is mental I had no sex last night I don’t know who you are going away. This girl was deaf I couldn’t have even conversed with her to get to the point of having sex. She made my life hell for 7 weeks so I moved, She later found where I moved too. more s*** yet again so I moved a second time. only for her to turn up to my work. She smashed the place up as I was not on duty. I then call the police and she gets a warning to stay away from her. couple months later she giving me more grief another warning. I move for the third time. Then I meet someone else and we decide to have children of our own as we were both getting on. When my partner was 8 months pregnant she gets a Facebook message from this girl saying she just had my baby. Needless to say my current girlfriend at the time thinks I had cheated on her. She goes back to London. a few days later I get a letter from CSA asking me to pay towards a child I don’t believe was mine, In this letter, it states the child is 13 months old. I show my girlfriend this letter and she finally believes I hadn’t cheated on her. She comes back. 2 weeks later this girl finds where I am living again as the CSA gave her my home address. At this point, I lose it and get a restraining order My girlfriend has an abruption from the stress and her and my daughter near enough die on the table to the point where they bring a bereavement counsellor to me. Luckily they manage to save them both. CSA take a year to perform DNA tests and state it’s my child. Although I still believe I was either date raped or the DNA is wrong I agree to pay for maintenance and set an amount to cover the cost of areas. But this wasn’t good enough for this girl as she wanted a relationship. She turned up to my work on 4 occasions nearly causing me to lose my job. I get transferred and had to move for the 4th time. The restraining order in place I get on with my life paying my monthly payments to the CSA direct for 7 years with no issues that took into account the areas that had accrued of 1629.25 during the DNA tests. Over the 7 years, I overpay the areas to the tune of 1225 and they didn’t take my son who was born 2 years later into account.
            2 years ago the CSA get disbanded and I get transferred to CMS this is where s*** really happened. they set a new figure and after explaining that there is a restraining order in place I finally get them to agree to get the bank details in which to pay. I pay the amount via SO. 3 weeks later get a demand for the original 1629.25. I complain which falls on deaf years they trying to say they have not collected any areas in 7 years. I continue to make payments for the rest of 2016 into 2017 all along disputing the areas which I had paid. asking for SAR which never came being hounded threatened and harassed. In Sep 2017 I’m told my areas is now 3500 as I have not paid since March 2017 I tell them that I have never missed a payment in 9 years I send in bank statements which they say they don’t get even after signing for them. I put in 3 online complaints I complain about writing 9 times all signed for I write to MP who is fobbed off by CMS. So right up until last week they threatening with all sorts including jail. I tell them I have had enough and that I am taking them to court. they say we will see about that and the very next days I get a deduction of earnings slapped against me. Bare in mind I have 9 years of bank statements proving I never missed a payment, They ignored every one of my complaints. 2 days later I get a letter saying if I don’t pay it all upfront in 28 days they will file for me to have my belonging, house, driving license and put me in jail. They ignored all the bank statements saying unless she says I had paid the bank statements don’t count. the very next day after the letter I get a call stating they are filing for my imprisonment. I see a solicitor yesterday who didn’t have a clue or just didn’t want to take on the CMS and when tried getting back in touch with MP earliest he can see me is 6 weeks. It is a Joke so don’t stand there preaching how s*** fathers are. I had no say in this kid I still don’t believe it is mine and I have paid every month for 9 years and I am still in this s***. the CMS is criminal they break human right and data protection laws and my complaints fell on deaf ears.
            It’s B*******
            *Please note that this comment was edited because of the language used. See our moderation policy*

          • John says:

            Personally, I’ve now gone in contempt of the grubby feeding frenzy that is family law. And I believe that fathers should take this action as a default until such time as we have a fair and reasonable system. After 15 years of family law, it can get stuffed and so can anybody working /profiting within that system. It is redundant, ineffective and useless.
            I’ve told my ex’s solicitor that I will not engage with her and have also made it clear that I will not engage with any other kind of rip-off family law professional – on any matter or for any reason. Neither would I turn up to court if summonsed.
            The family law system is an absolute, unequivocal disgrace. Getting involved with the opposite sex is now a dangerous and foolish act. Simply don’t do it and don’t feed the profiteering beasts of family law – your lawyer, social worker or even worse the head up their backsides psychologists (honestly you’d be better off talking to Mystic Meg). Tell them to get stuffed.
            The bottom line is that family law is misandry – raw and unabated. It is 80% staffed by women with chips on their shoulders, “fighting for the girls”. Men are just the conduit for the failings of their endeavours.

          • JamesB says:

            I just read back and the assumption this part of the thread was about me was wrong, sorry about that, anyway, the point about responsibility bringing up children is a tricky one. One I think the government should keep out of unless there is abuse. I say this as it is natural for mothers and fathers to bring up their children well.

          • JamesB says:

            I have just seen this and assume talking about me.
            The lack of fault in these things means women leave men and expect money for doing so which is the law.
            It happened to me twice for three children.
            With regards to my expectations, we are talking about the third child specifically, the one where I was told she was on the pill.
            The law seems to be written by a load of bitter women from Gingerbread and Mums Aid who unfortunately had the politicians ear.
            No, none of my children live in poverty. I have 4. The closest to it is the 4th who I live with and my current wife and we struggle while the others (1st wife especially) coin it in off me and other men and her family.
            Enough about my life for now. I do need to say though that the law is nonsense and the government would have done better to leave it to the courts and the courts would have done well to leave well alone also. The only time anyone should intervene between man and wife and children is if it is abuse, it says so in the bible and I know no higher authority (from Kieffer Sutherland in a Few Good Men).

          • JamesB says:

            Of course, courts get round the bible by calling what men do abuse and what women do virtuous as a rule, e.g. divorce petitions and as the man says below, its obviously corrupt and without any credibility, as seen by rise of Sharia law, people not marrying, people avoiding MCA 1973 marriage law. We need pre nups to try and get us back on the straight and narrow and native born men and women back together and married again. For our children. Rather than giving up or marrying foreigners, or drone to the state people losing out to immigrants.

  4. caroline Taylor says:

    I found it extremely heartening to read of your interest in the CSA. We have a Tribunal on Tuesday in Cheltenham to prove that we have a long standing history of support & exactly what we have paid to the pwc for the children.The CSA seem to take as ‘gospel ‘anything the pwc says and in an acrimonious situation this is completeIy unfair . I know there are a lot of people who try and use excuses to avoid payment but they seem to get away with it anyway ,for ever ,by never being traced .The NNRP who lives in the same house for years & have children regularly are targeted -often when they are working on ‘figures’ given by the pwc which in retrospect don’t even allow you to take into the consideration of the children who live with you .If the pwc is taking the money into her bank account and doesn’t tell you there is a problem -how on earth are you supposed to get them (your resident children)into the equation? Our MP tried & got the ball rolling for us and despite being very encouraging over our’ longevity & quality of the support to the children of the pwc’ cannot profess to know both sides of the story .Here’s hoping our ‘evidence’ of what we’ve done /paid speaks for itself ! Regards ,Caroline

    • Donna says:

      My partner had just had a 40% DEO imposed at the pwc has told the csa he has paid nothing. He has complied with a private agreement made in court (where he paid another £3.5 in legal fees to get contact back after she had broken the order again and stopped contact) and paid every month which he can prove. This will get sorted out eventually but in the meantime almost half his wages (pwc has never worked) will be taken leaving us in financial difficulties. So what happens to her now? Is she charged with fraud? Course not. When she has broken countless court orders is she reprimanded? Course not. The csa apparently encourage private agreements… Bull sh#£t! The whole system is flawed and the pwc gets away with murder every time

      • Robert says:

        Can anyone tell me if a potential father who had being paying children maintenance for over 10 years for a child he was not allowed too see and who recently through D.N.A have been proven to not be the child’s father, is able to sue The C.M.S as well as the mother.

        • Cameron Paterson says:

          Hello – could we ask roughly which part of the country you live in?

        • sam says:

          unlikely as csa offered men the opportunity to paternity test beginning of the claim, if you declined or failed to point out a paternity issue then thats your fault, sorry

  5. JamesB says:

    Far too long in this country that was.

  6. Sola Noah says:

    William T, please stop wasting your time going to a family court in England; it’s a failed institution.
    However, please ensure that your kids are looked after financially. Because we feel mothers use children as weapon we also feel using finance/money as weapon too is appropriate, NO.

  7. Yvie says:

    It is also possible for mothers to use finance/money as a weapon. Some mothers will attempt to reduce contact between the children and their father because the more contact the father has, the less child maintenance the mother is entitled to.

    • Dean says:

      I totally agree I have spent 6 years in trying to gain contact for my 7 year old son with many incriminating remarks from Pwc I now have him 5 days in every 14 ( pwc having 9) I have asked for equal contact but she refuses so the courts agree basically
      Thus the devil in disguise the CSA – who she has constantly harrassing me.They illegally tried to force me to sell my property as I am self employed and my earnings have been effected as a result of constant contact hearings and Csa / tribunal hearings has lead me into a spiralling financial hole.there seems to be No Equality taken into the equation as the nrp has costs when looking after child(ren) why is this not realised,and speaking to other nrp they are left with little or nothing to spend on child(ren)
      It seems that the two are quite cleverly linked the pwc is 99.9percent the mother to where the father is seen to pay for the privilege to see his child(ren) then after is ridiculed to the megalomaniacs who are the Csa.
      What if the father nrp wants to see child(ren) on a50/50 shared basis -not allowed -has to set up pwc with powers to ask financially what she wants! Are fathers seen as a non requirement to a child’s up bringing (other than financial) this seems to be the case in the eyes of family law and by the Csa.which then begs the question of equality!this opens up a case for human rights, can there not be a simple formula that give parents shared responsibility if that’s what they want and so share financial costs on a 50/50 basis giving the child an upbringing by both parents.
      But the courts make this difficult -remember a booming buisiness would be lost if this was the case! Fathers would not be funding the courts on a regular basis,the Csa/Cms should then concentrate solely on what they were originally set up for and find the fathers that do not want to support children.Not on fathers that want to pay and do pay but unfortunately these fathers are easy targets to bully into paying more for the mothers lifestyle.A petition should be made and handed to government demanding urgent changes as its only the children that will suffer and untill nrp’s do this this will continue to be by the ignorance of the lawmakers.Call this justice- ITS NOT!!

  8. chris says:

    I have had the unfortunate experience of being presented to a judge for so called arrears of child support . These arrears never existed as i have met my obligations for child support . the so called arrears accrued because it took the csa 26 months to complete a review . its importanant to emphasise that during this 26 month period i was paying maintenance at my assessed amount calculated by the CSA . when your in court a judge cannot question anything the csa presents even if you have evidence to support your defence . Im pleased that the court of appeal has found that thuman rifghts have been breached by the CSA . Lets see where it goes . i dare say at appeal it will be squashed as before the CSA are drachonian and its money for the treasury not the child . isnt that corret MR Ian Duncan Smith

  9. John says:

    I hope that this ruling is the first of many, that will bring an end to criminalising NRP’s, through CSA incompetence and herald a class action against the CSA and DWP, for inhumane methods, that deny the accused the right to a fair trial and to be judged by their peers, in a court of law.
    I will be seeking legal advice and compensation for CSA incompetence, in their efforts to criminalise me, should a class action take place….and I have been paying what they asked of me!
    They should be disbanded and all Child maintenance cases should be firstly dealt with by parental mediation, and if failing to agree, through solicitors and the courts!

  10. chris says:

    I quite agree that the csa should be held to account for decades of incompetance and maladministartion . they do not have a duty of care to a child however this is now a step in the right direction for those reponsible parents that have met their individual financial obligations not to be tarred with the same brush as those that will not and have no intention of financially supporting their children . Bring on the compensation claims i say .

  11. Observer says:

    I agree Chris. Organized crime is only legitimate inasmuch as nobody stands up to it.

  12. NACSA CHAIR says:

    We were absolutely delighted to hear the judgement. Whilst we would wholeheartedly support the need for enforcement, and for the need to make non paying parents understand that their actions cannot be tolerated, sadly our help lines are inundated with genuine NRPs paying as they should, but often put into large arrears through no fault of their own. Likewise, we receive many calls from PWCs that genuinely suffer from errant ex partners, and despite years of battling against the system, the Agency simply fail achieve appropriate recovery of debt. The Agency’s enforcement powers are harsh and adequate – but simply not used effectively.

    • DEBORAH HOWARD says:

      well im hoping to get some maintenance from my ex, ive had nothing for 14 years even though ive done the csa’s job fr them by supplying home address/work details etc… the system is completely useless but ill never give up,never

      • RG says:

        Because you believe he owes you. or because your children suffer in some way because he hasn’t paid, or because you feel helpless?

  13. The Other Mike D says:

    “Nevertheless, as much as many would like it, we must resist the temptation to paint all non-resident fathers as victims. As any family lawyer will confirm, there is no shortage in this world of fathers who cannot or will not do the right thing by their children, nor of single mothers in need. Some form of government intervention in the child maintenance process is unavoidable”
    While I confess I dont know what the rates are in the UK, in the US, research here has shown that mothers are 66% more likely than fathers to defualt on child support. So I find this comment more that bit sexist. The courts here, like the courts in the UK, are so heavily against the fahters that even those fathers that do the right the right thing are subject to a level of scrutiny that mothers are never subject too. The US is also having its share of child support enforcement agencies being subject to lawsuits exposing Thier heavy handed tactics.
    As someone who has experienced it first hand I say its about time.

  14. JamesB says:

    I agree with Mike. I also was upset by the same section that he refers to, as I said in my earlier post. At the risk of getting a bit political, if Obama loses on Tuesday, then it will be more than a little bit due to Government (false) intervention in this area in the US also.

  15. JamesB says:

    P.S. for that issue and if Romney is against this Government intervention into the family, then I would vote for him. It is the main issue upon which I would vote, I’m in the UK.

    • sam says:

      so let me clarify then, your american living uk, usa army maybe? with voting rights for usa election, you sit on a British legal blog whinging about english women the UK system which u complain defective and blame British women for ? am i wrong in my surmise? we have to many parties promoting migrant men in uk which led to rochdale rotherham pedophile crisis.

  16. Jason Wallace says:

    Hi there
    I was delighted to see that the ruling was awarded against The Child Support Agency.
    My experience is similar to many others in that I WAS paying a settlement which my ex-wife’s solicitor drew up. The agreement clearly stated that she would use a mediation service and would not use The CSA. The Court Order was very clear indeed.
    What has happened is that my ex wife has involved The CSA and has realised that by denying the children the right to see me that she can then claim the right to even more money from me.
    So, I complied with a Court Order. My ex wife did not. I work full time to support my families (as does my wife) while my ex wife does not. I am unable to see my children. Then to add to all the punishment the state comes in and makes things even more contentious.
    I have repeatedly sought a non-confrontational approach with my ex wife and it has got me nowhere so I am now faced with half my salary being removed by DEO based upon calculations which The CSA will not share with me so I am having to go to tribunal for that.
    Folks, while it is important to track down NRPs who actively do not pay child support why does the state have to foul up arrangements which were perfectly good?

  17. GPiskor says:

    A long overdue ruling with international ripple effects.
    It’s staggering that Lord Justice Ward would publicly state it was done with “great reluctance” with the full knowledge that it would “emasculate” CSA’s prosecutorial capability. Amazing! That’s tantamount to saying expediency trumps Rule of law.
    Hopefully, Iain Duncan Smith will use this as an opportunity to rework the DWP enforcement bureaucracy to focus on intentional non-payors while establishing humane outcomes for those simply unable to pay.

  18. David says:

    It’s good news… so why do I feel like nothing will change in reality. It’s a shame as a citizen to have no faith in the law of the country you were born and live in.

  19. James D says:

    CSA yer right a walking joke…Try this….After my divorce it was decided that the children’s best interest lay with them living me, their Dad. I made an application to the CSA for maintenance, only to find some 12 months later, it had been me assessed and I owed £1400 in child support arrears that I needed to pay my ex wife who was the NRP and at this point had not seen the children for 18 months. You ask hows that..”plain stereotyping”.
    “He’s the Dad, he most owe the money”
    Well I didn’t and after countless phone calls and a court summons it was eventually sorted…Thankfully the Judge awarded my legal cost to the CSA. I have to say, I still have not had a penny in maintenance and after the debarkle I went though, I don’t want any….
    I am thankful for the Judgement and feel that any wing clipping of the CSA is only a good thing….

    • DEBORAH HOWARD says:

      you went through all that then decided you didnt want the money anyway?? doesnt make sense especially as the money is not for you its for your children, if you receive any I suggest you save it and give it to your child/ren when they are older

      • RG says:

        I was trying to do that because the ex is terrible with money.. The CSA cleaned out what I’d saved for the kids AND what I was intending to save each month! I can’t even buy the, pressies this Christmas 🙁

  20. Rae says:

    Its all well and good for those that do pay, but what about those who dont?
    My ex husband refuses to pay for his children in any way,shape or form.
    The legal process is frustrating at best, all ways have been tried to get him to pay, after a ten year battle where he refusal to continue to pay for his children or offer even the slightest financial support to them ( he has even classed gifts, such as b/day and xmas presents from his family members as financial support) and yet demands his legal rights to still have access to his children, the system has failed us badly. I have to work to support our children whilst he acrues money hand over fist from his own business and because he doesnt give his details to inland revenue the csa have their hands tied and cannot proceed with any action because they cannot determine that he is earning anything as his money is either hidden at home or paid into his wifes bank account.
    This matter swings both ways and I think a point should be put across for all those genuine single parents whose partner downright refuses to pay for their children, things are never as simple as they are painted.

    • sam says:

      “My ex husband refuses to pay for his children in any way,shape or form” that is reason i gleaned from outset including info told me agency workers they go after the same old paying fathers, for stats targets. those not paying are real problem not dads who are responsible they are being lumped into same government computer system. this why csa never worked.

  21. JamesB says:

    Not sure what a ‘Genuine Single Parent’ is, is this one without another partner. I think the Government bit off more than they could chew with this idea and shouldn’t have gone anywhere near the subject. Instead they have attempted to wade into family disputes and made a bigger mess. I am a NRP who pays through the csa and I resent every penny they squeeze out of me and vote accordingly.

  22. Observer says:

    It sounds like you are a victim indeed, albeit rather of a system that leads parents to believe that it is acceptable that after treating each other as throwaway objects you can then still expect interest on your half-ass investment.
    It really is shocking that we are walking around like zombies hurting each other and our children so that those working in the divorce industry can continue to shop at Harrods at the weekend.

  23. Rae says:

    My children are not hurt by this as I do my utmost to support and help them fulfill their roles as decent well brought up children who have respect for everyone.
    None of what has taken place has been told to my children as I dont want them hurt by this, all I tried to do was simply state things from anothers point of view.
    I would hope I have done my best by my children who seem to be growing up into well balanced and happy individuals in their own right.

  24. Karen Kirkland says:

    I am a pwc. My ex has done everything posable to avoid paying any matenence. Can any one tell me why after 10 years I should carry on letting him have unrestricted access to our daughter?

    • Marilyn Stowe says:

      Hi Karen.
      Understandable feelings but the law is about the child and what is in her best interests. Neither of you have “rights” you have responsibilities which both should discharge in the interests of your daughter.
      Best wishes

    • Rosaya says:

      Karen – snap, our children do have a ‘right’ to a stable life and the absent parent should help 50/50. Its all about the fathers interests. Solicitors are making a fortune off the back of this but who helps us? The CSA is disbanding, and spiteful, twisted men are alleging they are suicidal so they can avoid having money taken from benefits.

    • Stitchedup says:

      My ex has done everything posable to avoid paying any matenence. Can any one tell me why after 10 years I should carry on letting him have unrestricted access to our daughter?
      A. Because he’s her father, why cut off access to his daughter after 10 years? Your only motive appears to be to spite him for avoiding paying maintenance and use you appear to be prepared to use your child as a bargaining tool. Most fathers would like equal access i.e. 50/50, they would then be paying their way during the time they have their children. Most fathers also like to be treated as responsible, loving parents and object to being “ordered” to so something they would do willingly if they were allowed equal access. Fathers like to decide for themselves how best to meet the needs of the their children, and balance their needs against the needs of the family as a whole. They should be allowed to prioritise meeting needs against wants, sometimes children may have to do without if money is tight or unexpected expenses arise. A blanket monthly amount based on a father’s perceived earnings has no real relationship to a child’s true needs Fathers also object to being used a cash cows for children they rarely see or are only allowed Indirect contact.

    • RG says:

      Because GOOD parents don’t really care about money GOOD parents care about teaching their kids critical thinking, getting them a decent education, making sure they grow up balanced and able to survive!

  25. Friend says:

    Because a child is not something you rent out, duh?

  26. JamesB says:

    That is quite brilliant Friend. U write well. Concise and to hje point.

  27. Yvie says:

    There are issues on both sides regarding payment of child maintenance unfortunately.
    However, the attitude of some parents who claim ‘ownership’ of the children is perhaps one of the reasons why so many parents end up in the Family Courts.

  28. John says:

    Now that justice is going to be seen to be done for the 96 Hillsborough victims, will justice also be seen to be done with regard to the thousands of victims of the CSA. Some of whom have lost their lives, as their Human rights have been routinely broken by the CSA?

  29. Simon says:

    Its to late for me the csa says i owe £10,000+. In June 2012 they finally got their way after taking me to court for the twentieth time. The court keep me waiting outside for over 3 hours until a solicitor could get there, all-the-while the csa rep was in the court talking to the magistrate. Yes im convinced it was pre planned what was going to happen to me before id stepped foot into the court 20 mins later im in handcuffs and being lead away to prison for 25 days. at this point i’ll back track to 2007 when on yet another occasion at court with the csa, i was sat outside courtroom no9 at the local magistrates when a rep from said agency came out and asked me my name then asked if i had a solicitor with me to which i replied i did not. Her reply to this was and i quote “well if you dont then i can guarantee you WILL BE sent down”
    Just proves up until this that the csa are a law unto themselves.
    Phoned csa on 14/01/2013 and im sick of the lies they tell, lies which i can prove as i recorded the conversations with 3 of their so called reps. I mentioned outright that they were breaching my human rights only to be told we dont care about that. typical response. im unemployed and it looks like i will be until the day i die due to now having a bad criminal record.

  30. JamesB says:

    I don’t think you have a criminal record just for going to prison. One of the things that cheer me up (and probably the chap who went for 2 years today) on the point of principle with regards to bad law is that these matters are not criminal.
    Thus I would like you and him and many others go to jail rather than put up with bad law. I also, like millions of others would rather not marry then be subject to bad divorce law.

  31. JamesB says:

    Well done on your approach Simon.

  32. simon says:

    Thanx for that but i was classed as a civil prisoner now being told by said agency they can take me to court again for this debt. Told via legal advice that this is impossible as this would fall under the clause of double jeopardy. Statements from said agency state what i owe is and i quote “outside of the agencies 24 month collection” upon telephoning agency and stating as a matter of fact nowhere in the child support act does it say this so this statement is totally in contradiction to what the law states, only to be told by ????? that this is something that this gov agency likes to put on letters. NOT LAWFUL SO SHOULD NOT BE ON ANY LETTER.

  33. JamesB says:

    civil is not criminal.

  34. simon says:

    Yes civil is not criminal but it still shows on a CRB check. When and indeed if i’m lucky enough to find work, the vast majority of job application forms ask for a disclosure, do i mention it and take my chance that they will not check or do i be honest and put it on!!!!!!. Have to say the WORST part of all this is not actually going to prison (though that was a very low point in my life and i dont think i could have got through it without the love, help and understanding of my partner) what hurts the most is the fact that is was in the local evening paper (a one sided story , that painted me in such a bad way as to imply that i had NEVER paid anything towards my children, no mention of the £15,000 i’ve paid) its the fact that now ALL my neighbors now know my business and both my partner and I are now ridiculed because of this.

  35. JamesB says:

    I’m sorry Simon, I am on your side. I do believe job applications only ask for criminal records. I don’t think you have to disclose it at all.

  36. Darren Jamieson says:

    Yvie is quite correct about the PWC reducing contact to increase the money they receive. Because the CSA has a ‘reverse pay per view’ policy for the non resident parent, usually the father. So long as the CSA works out money based on how many nights per year the child spends with the NRP, and how much they spend on contact, the PWC will always be financially rewarded for restricting or stopping access.

  37. simon says:

    Darren J, your comment is absolutely SPOT ON stopping the NRP from seeing HIS/HER children will increase the award to the PWC. Its about time this so called gov realized it takes two to make a life. Children NEED both parents in their life, otherwise they will only see a one sided story, as indeed my own children think that i dont care or love them due to the fact their mother has mis-lead them to this conclusion, they think i was the one having the 2yr affair. If PWC refuses to allow contact with NRP then PWC should be taken to court, fined, loose any benefits or imprisoned, this i’m sure would make them think twice, but this will not happen because as i’m sure we’ve all seen money is the most important factor. As i’ve been told countless times by csa she can spend the money where she sees fit, classic example in 2007 i handed over £3000+ only for the ex to phone me a few days later to say thanx and to also say and i quote “My new decking looks really good” this i’m sure will benefit the kids no end.

  38. simon says:

    Further update had to phone csa Yesterday as they are now sending letters addressed to my partner. Sorted that then the threats started from rep again i.e. WE will send you to prison if you dont pay the arrears or we’ll send the bailiffs round to collect the debt . My response to that was You i.e. csa can not send me to prison Only a judge can do that, i also stated send then round matey and i’ll tell them what im telling you i.e. a liability order is NOT a warrant for you to enter my property ( Yes i know the law regarding this) and by all means bring the police with you as he will only be there to prevent a breach of the peace, but there again seams as if they get what they want and Jonny muppet has to like it or lump it. Self preservation at all costs again spring to mind and yes im fed up to the back teeth of their BULLY BOY tactics.
    Asked to speak to their complaints department only to be told that was not possible and i would not be give the phone number or put through.
    Just read with great interest that the gov is planning on doing away with said agency and ALL cases will be closed in 2014 and how it plans to charge BOTH parents to use this service. Roll on 2014 is what i say.

  39. mrs R says:

    To JAMES B, (1st nov). how can you say a woman gets pregnant on purpose without the mans consent??? surely if he doesnt use protection he is just as responsible for the pregnancy! contraception is not just down to the woman. you wouldnt cross the road without looking would you, (or maybe you would need a lollipop lady), so why not take care of yourself in other areas of your life. If you only want to paddle, wear your wellies!!!!!!!!!

  40. Steve Warwick says:

    I work my ass off 39 hours a week for minimum wage got debts coming out my ears from my ex wife and my marriage… My ex wife not long sign up for a new car on finance? ? ? My kids have everything they are living in a new house that my wife gets for FREE everything my wife gets its FREE she has NEVER worked and now im getting CSA letters for £250+ each month ??? So the only thing i can see that im paying for out of this CSA is the repayments on my ex wifes NEW car??? leaving me in more debt and leaving me with maybe the only option but to just leave my job that i love and have worked for 9 years? I might as well not work and just give up??? Where is my human rights? Where is MY life? ? ? I buy my kids things they need new clothes new trainers anything they need i do provide. Is there justice? Can anyone help me? Do i have to leave my job and just give up? Im willing to talk to news papaers or even go on TV i can’t be the only man that feels like just giving up his job all becuase the ex wife wants to live a nice life and have a new car and buy herself nice clothes???PLEASE someone help you can email me on [email protected]. Steve

  41. JamesB says:

    mrs R. We are not going to agree on that. Try advising anyone up to the 1990s what you say and they wouldn’t even understand your argument, let alone laugh at it. As it is I barely do and certainly do not agree with it and do find the suggestion that you make that every sperm is sacred ridiculous. Just blaming the man and absolving the woman of responsibility is a cop out.
    To be less confrontational, it is the woman’s responsibility as it is her womb and she has to carry the baby. Otherwise it is rape.

  42. JamesB says:

    You are wrong on so many levels there, but I will leave it there. Rights without responsibilities for the woman as you and the csa argue is morally bankrupt and the same as arguing every sperm is sacred and a morally unsustainable position.

  43. JamesB says:

    Having sex with a condom is unnatural, like the csa. Especially when you have been advised (as I was) that the woman is on the pill, or has the contraception taken care of. To be entitled to money for that behaviour as per the csa and denying contact as per family law is outrageously bad and un-fair and un-british and un-natural.

  44. JamesB says:

    Plus condoms are against mine and many other peoples religion.

  45. jim says:

    the csa are taking money from my wages because they say i am in arrears, they have been to my work spoke to my employer took me to court because they dont believe what i say i am earning is true, so people it doesnt matter what proof you have of your earnings if they think you earn more they will just help themselves and theres not a thing you can do becausr there is no one out there strong enough to fight these animals

  46. John says:

    Since when has Statute law preceeded Common law?
    Important matters involving children belong in the courts, professional, qualified personnel, with representation for both parties and not with the incompetent, bundling amaterurs at the CSA.
    Public buildings are available to house the cases, and each case could be heard on its’ merits, with full financial disclosure from both parties, where a settlement can be agreed.
    As it stands, the current shambolic system, is demonising and attempting to criminalise parents, through erroneous and flawed legislation.

  47. Name Witheld says:

    I left my wife in 1998, her infidelity and mental abuse towards me was unbearable. I left her the house and belongings and walked out with just a suitcase. I was told by her that had to have the children every weekend and school holidays. It was difficult with work commitments but i managed. I later found a new partner, enter csa. My x told the csa i never saw children or paid towards there upkeep. Despite a letter drawn up by a solicitor under her instructions the csa still refused to accept that i had paid my dues as she believed that the money paid was for something else. I refused to pay and was threatend with court and prison, an action that never occurred as the evidence would have gone against them. Recipts, solicitors letter and proof from neighbours and friends. I fell into depression after failed attempts to sort things out and constant miss truths and downright lies. All the csa had to do was come visit me any weekend or scholl holiday, an offer they refused. I eventually left uk and my eldest daughter joined me after her mother kicked her out. I came back year and half ago and now the csa have once again taken up the good fight and ignoring all evidence, apparantly i can be judged retrospectively but alas ex wife cant. They now say i owe 7k and have decided that i have to pay 114 weekly, leaving me with 180. I get no benifits and my rates and rent is 100 weekly. How am i supposed to live ? WHERE IS THE JUSTICE WE CLAIME IS AFFORDED TO ALL !

  48. Simon says:

    Fact 1, There is nobody and i mean NOBODY in the UK that can fight the csa, they are a law unto themselves. If your lucky enough and i’ve been told this several time by several different solicitors to actually find someone to fight your corner you NOW HAVE TO PAY OUT OF YOUR OWN POCKET as you WILL NOT be entitled to legal aid.
    Fact 2, The UK government IS a company, a company that IS REGISTERED at COMPANY HOUSE as ALL BUSINESSES HAVE TO BE. UK courts are part and parcel of the UK government so this is one of the reasons that a court will find in favour of the csa no matter what written evidence you have to contradict the csa.
    Fact 3, CSA dont care where the money goes (if it gets passed to pwc) this is their responce and i quote ” she can spend it where she sees fit. We can not tell her how or when to spend it”
    The csa are there to ensure the child(ren) have enough money for their daily needs, if thats the case then this agency are trading fraudulently , the clues in their name CHILD SUPPORT and NOT EX-WIFES SUPPORT.
    Fact 4, CSA workers will have an answer for EVERYTHING EVEN MADE UP ANSWERS, i.e, one recent call to them resulted in me being told “have you notified us of this change” yes was my reply some 12-13 previous” to which i was then told, and this bit beggers belief, did you make sure it was put in your notes, now i can do many things but physically putting my arm down the phone and typing this info onto their database is a bit beyond even what i can do.
    Fact 5, you could try appealing any decision that they make but just be forewarned the appeal is made up of their own csa workers and this results in what, thats right you’ve guessed it the nrp loosing their appeal.

  49. Paul Gilbert says:


    • Marilyn Stowe says:

      Dear Paul
      You appear to be in an intolerable position but I dont have the full facts.
      Why not give Child Maintenance Options a call and tell them everything, and see if they can advise you what to do? Its a free service.
      There are a number of specialists online also who deal only with child support queries. You could contact them.
      Finally there is your MP who may be able to assist you
      Best wishes

  50. Georgina says:

    Are the same rules supposed to apply to the pwc if they are the father? My husband was made to pay for arrears that did not exist because he had been stupid and paid cash at the insistence of his ex to ensure contact with his daughter. My step daughter moved in with us 2 years ago and whilst my husbands maintenance payment stopped he was told by the csa that he would not be entitled to receive money from his ex as she was receiving benefits. We have since been told this is not the case so contacted the csa who have adviaed that yes she should have been paying but unlike my husband is not iable to pay back any money for the last 2 years. So we are still paying back arrear s and she gets off scott free!!! Is this right??

  51. JamesB says:

    CSA dont chase female nrps. One of their dodgy rules.

  52. Angry Mum says:

    My son lives with his partner and her four children that he supports as their own father is too lazy to work so contributes nothing to their care. His son who his ex girlfriend (seeing him as a meal ticket) deliberately got pregnant with lives with his mother and her husband who is also too lazy to work. My son is now at the stage where he will have to leave his partner and home to move back in with mum and dad and force her onto benefits because he cannot afford to keep five children even though he has always worked extremely hard often 60 to 70 hours a week and away from home four nights a week. The CSA just don’t care. He was forced to go bankrupt last week but they still demand more and more.

  53. John says:

    Ok, so what laws are in place to prevent the mother from using the money on other things like cars and nights out. my kids are kitted out in nnew clothes all the time i send them to mother and they never come back in the items i send them in forcing me to to buy clothes and pay the money each month, school tips for 300 pounds then pay CSA 348 per month were is the justice in making women stop, they abuse the system and stillg et benifits. they shouldnt have issues with the cost of benifits they get its not impossible to live a steady life on that money i have girl freinds that are out every weekend party like rockstars on the mans wages and benifits. snorting coke drinking living the dream. its wrong i recently lost 300 pounds per month from my wages i am still paying CSA my new part ner feeds me, I cant afford food for myself. when do i get a night out or the luxury of running a car. just about make it to work. women have it so easy.

  54. Sam G says:

    Again and again im reading about the csa and their tactics in getting what they want and yes Im one of their victims after i signed my divorce and gave my exwife my half of the profit of £27,000 from the sale of the family home for the welfare of my children i receaved a letter from the csa saying that i owed £10,000 plus in arrears and if i didnt pay them i would be takin to court i explained that i didnt have arrears and that i had givin my exwife £13,000 for the children they told me that it didnt matter what i gave my ex they still want their money so i agreed to go to court and explain my position to them the day came i had my pre court interview with the csa bumbling mistake ridden offical to be told by her in her words its a waste of time fighting as she will get what she wants and the court cant do a thing about it of course she was right even after she lied in court about my statment but in my favour the sheriff did agree with my explanation but he could not do a thing about the csa and their demands I was told by the sheriff in court that i should appeal . They are above the law

  55. Steve says:

    They finally caught up with me… Ignoring letters ignoring them and they just take it out your wages in the end after 3 months of ignoring them so it did give me 3 months of extra money. Now im kinda broke. So my questions is… My ex wife is now getting over £200 a month off me from my wages??? She does not work and never has she is living in a brand new house for FREE and claims benefits? So i want to know if this will effect her benefits claiming CSA from me? Or does the greedy cow still get FREE eveything??? Does she not have to contact the inland revenue to tell them she is getting more money? I want to know becuase if she has not told them then i will??? Does anyone know ???

  56. Yvie says:

    Since April 2010, even if your wife is on benefits she is entitled to the whole amount of child maintenance that you pay her.

  57. Steve says:

    I know that yes she has the money off me for the kids thats fine but the money she has been getting for before for the kids will she still get that? Child Support money or tax credits or what ever its called? So your telling me she gets my £200 a month and still gets the same income that she was getting before she had the £200 off me??? Do you understand what im saying?

  58. Yvie says:

    It might be worth contacting child maintenance options for check. They are separate from the child support agency and they are supposed to be impartial. Its worth a try.

  59. JamesB says:

    cmoptions are the csa. maintenance doesnt affect other benefits, and rightly so. maintenance. csa shouldnt exist and is morally bankrupt, but that is another issue.

  60. mark w says:

    i did the same as steve, ignored letters and phone calls from csa, they took me to court for £32,ooo three years ago which i pay £46.10 a week . was told i hadnt paid for my daughter since the day she was born , but my ex and i didnt part until she was two , and i had my daughter all holidays and gave my ex money but couldnt prove it . csa and magistrate didnt care at all. funny the money was mentioned a lot, but not my daughter !!!!

  61. Lukey says:

    William, the system could care less about whether you get contact with your child, that’s a can of worms they have no incentive to get involved in.The courts & the CSA are interested in money – and how they can extract it from you.
    That’s it. If you are looking for fairness you are being naïve – they are not interested.

  62. Mike says:

    Paul Gilbert my heart goes out to you.
    Anyone who is the victim of financial maladministration I would have thought is entitled to pursue for compensation.
    Through whatever is in place.Are they not accountable to an ombudsman?The tribunal service hears appeals but where the effect on someones life is as bad as your case I would be seeking damages.
    The DWP are idiots these days.
    A man I know could not work as he broke his arm and wrist badly and claimed incapacity benefit.A nurse (I ask you a nurse not a doctor)examined him and in extreme pain on raising his injured arm declared him fit.I helped him take it to the tribunal.He won.They (DWP)no show up.I commented to the tribunal chairman how ridiculous the DWP appeared to be behaving generally.His comment in reply was they knew only too well how stupid they were behaving.
    There were 3 on the panel including a qualified doctor.
    It took them 2 minutes after asking us to leave the room to award in my friends favour.It had taken 14 months to get there.He lived on bread,loans and sympathy.
    Faceless nameless people playing a numbers game knowing full well 99 out of a hundred will just reel over and die.Unable to understand or face the process.
    This country with the latest attacks on the poor WILL in my opinion by late this year be burning again.A repeat of Toxteth,Brixton etc of 1981-2 and the Poll Tax riots of 1990-91.
    This government are hopeless with as no understanding of economics and what we face.
    6 million public servants shuffling bits of paper everywhere when there were just 2 million of them 25 years back.
    How I laughed when I heard Osborne state on election 3 years ago that they would lay 2 million of them off and they would all find jobs in the private sector.It was hilarious.
    3 years on.No change.3 years on a benefit system of reform in chaos.Just as Real time Tax instigations have not worked Real Time Benefit administration expecting employers to do the work will not work.
    Enough of that.It is heartily time someone argued that the way the CSA behave is in contravention of the Human Rights Act in regard to family life.
    There is no fair trial with these people.They arbitrarily interfere with family life that is not in the interest of the child.How can that be in the childs interest to see a dad in contact (I fought for two years to May 2003 and acheived overnight wednesday,every second weekend fri and sat and sun and half every holiday for my contact taking on two barristers on my own over two days in court and walking out with a pyrhic victory.2 years to get there in something that should have been sorted round a table in two hours.
    The way this country treats fathers and their children is still a joke ten years on.)on his death bed through a heart attack and so depressed that he cannot eat as he has no money left that his child in contact is affected.To see their dad ruined.Is that in the interest of the child or family life.
    Methinks not.Someone should take these pratts on to Strasbourg.How can it be right that a dad who sees his kid and has no money left to spend on them when they come?
    I am now on income based JSA.
    I have £70 to live on.The DWP letter says that is the amount the law says I need to live on.
    I travel now every week and sometimes twice to see my daughter in a round trip of 200 miles.Petrol alone is £35 for one such trip,never mind wear tear and all car running costs.Its a £200 14 year old Wagon R.Cheap as chips.
    over the last three months of bad weather my daughter has not come to stay with me for the weekend due to weather and the fact that her gran needs seeing nearer where she lives who broke her hip on 2 jan.
    On 6 March the CSA clerk rang me.questioned whether my daughter still stayed with me.Expained that had not happened since New Years Eve but would be starting again in spring.They said they needed to send me forms.Instead I got a letter saying frim 6 March they were taking 5 pounds a week from my JSA.When I said it was temporary and my daughter would still be overnight 52 nights in a year they said keep a diary.They have now taken 20 pounds.My ex has yet to have it.I have had to tell my daughter her £20 a month phone contract will not be paid on 7 April when due as a consequence.She was in tears.There will be further anger as when my daughter went without a phone connection for 2 days last year there were eruptions.”The child will not be safe” etc.If I can no longer eat how can that be in the childs interest.To make a child fatherless through death.When I questioned why they could not take into account my extraordinary travel costs for contact they said they could not as I was on a benefit and that was the law.I promised to go up there and rip them apart if I could not eat.They said they did not care if I could not eat.That the £5 would help my daughter.The mother is in debt.My daughter is scared.Baliiff letters are everywhere.She is worried they will be kicked out of their house.The £5 will be swallowed up in that debt.The child will benefit not one jot.She will lose her phone.The police visited me about my threat.The officer said “The CSA have a dreadfull name.try deal with it without losing your temper.He was shocked at my personal circumstances and very sympathetic.
    I think its Annie get your gun time in this country.My child is nearly 15 now and could have done without a resumption of family hostilities about as much as those clowns at the CSA would appreciate a bulltet through the temple.
    On one occasion several years ago when they had wrongly assessed me and it took 2 years and lots of wasted state incurred baliff and court costs on their part (that I never had to pay as they were wrong)I was constantly being phoned and harrassed by one of their collection team at East kilbride.In broad Scotttish aggressive tone he screamed at me to pay it (I was by then heavily in debt)and if I live to 100 I will never forget his wining scream…”We”ve waited long enough” Unsure on reflection on ending the call whether he was referring to Bannockburn or Culloden In have remained indifferent towards Scots to this day.For my mind that pratt would through my justice be required to spend the rest of his natural days with Gordon Brown rebuilding Hadrians wall and making sure it was 20 fooy higher.When complete he would be then be ball and chained while he dug out deeper Orfa”s dyke.
    the anger I feel is all consuming.It affects my relationship with my dearly loved child.
    I had the brain and resolve thankfully to fight and overcome the injustice.I now intend to take this on again.
    The child cannot benefit from this nonsense one bit.
    The CSA cause more damage to children through their incompetence han any errant father.
    Yes we all know women use their child as the weapon and the shield in break up.To add to that great pile of ruibbish that was once deemed a relationship.
    it is corrupt.state sponsored child abuse of the highest order.Mixing kids life up when all they need is the love and support a mum AND DAD can still give.
    They are an institution that are without doubt “UNFIT FOR PURPOSE”.No child is better off through their involvement.
    They simply wreak havoc and misery on family life that goes on after break up.
    Yes we do have respponsibilty to our kids rather than rights.
    The CSA and their insensitive policy show No responsibility to children in the wat they arbitrarily interfere in those relationships whatsoever.
    And with that I have decided to take my case through the courts citing the Human Rights Act.To Europe if neccessary.
    What a truly 3rd class country we have become that the CSA in pretending to be acting in childrens best interest can cause such misery and cause depression in familys that will stay for life.WE ARE NOT ALONE.Thank god they are finally being wound up.It seems some years since the Home Office (Home Secretary)very publically condemned them as UNFIT FOR PURPOSE.
    Suffer little children whilst you weep.Your Government cares not a jot.

  63. Yvie says:

    They have not been killed off Mike – like Hydra they have grown a new head.

  64. George says:

    First abuse of human rights is being classed as an ‘absent parent’ – this conjures up images of parents who do not have any contact. The definition of absent is ‘ not present, not part of anything’ which in many instances is not the case. I have always been very much a part of my children’s lives and have never been absent, I have always been available.
    I personally find this to be every bit as derogatory as using incorrect language to describe other minority groups.
    Fathers should have exactly the same rights as Mum does. My experience of parental responsibility has been appalling. I have had doctors turn round and say ‘I am not discussing this with you I will discuss it with the mother’. I have had endless battles with schools to get reports issued directly to me. I have even been into a doctor’s surgery to have records amended because the mother had changed the name of the children without consent, even though the surgery knew that I had parental responsibility. So much for equality, so much for wanting fathers to take an active role and that’s with parental responsibility.
    The present system is not only riddled with inequality but it is incredibly biased towards the Mother.
    My own experience over the last 17 years has been extremely fraught with difficulties and inequalities. I was forced to use the court system to try to gain access to my children which was subsequently blocked with an accusation made against me of sexual abuse towards my children. This was completely and totally fabricated and after several months of expensive legal battles the judge threw this accusation out of court with the judge making his point very sternly. Her bill was covered by legal aid, my bill was for me to pay and amounted to thousands. I thought that this must be something very rare, yet according to my solicitor he said it was all too familiar. He stated that it was used to wear down and financially exhaust the other party.
    At that time I was a small business working closely with the public in a very small community. I watched my business disappear due to the very fact that an accusation had been brought against me. Double financial blow coupled with an already delicate state of personal worth. Psychologically I withdrew, have suffered huge periods of depression and find it very very difficult to let down the guard which is extremely high. My relationship with my children suffered and the stress that it has placed upon my relationship with my partner has been immense. (She has been my rock and I am eternally grateful to her for bringing me to where I am today) At the time I so wanted to gain custody of the children but was advised by my “children’s panel solicitor’ that it would be unlikely that I would gain this and in his opinion would cause further suffering to the children. I agreed and followed a path of contact coupled with a life of hell from the CSA.
    I was determined to remain in my children’s lives and knew at that point that it would be fraught with difficulties. I wasn’t wrong, I have had several visits to court to reinstate contact along with a visit from the police when accused of kidnapping my son when he was thrown out aged 8 with all his belongings ( I collected him with 8 black bin liners with all his belongings in). I have been portrayed in a negative manner through the entire time and my children have been repeatedly prevented from having open access and are used constantly as a weapon of manipulation.
    At no time have the CSA ever taken into consideration my bills for trying to maintain contact with my children. They are fixated on calculations and view anyone who enters the system as just not wanting to pay. They force people into debt, this by a government who want to regulate the loan sharks for this very reason. They use tactics that most loan sharks would love to have at their disposal and in my opinion appear to break so many of my basic human rights I find it hard to believe that it is actually a government that is behind them. Amazingly they can do all this yet allow asylum seekers, terrorists, sex offenders, criminals and those who just sit on benefit to do as they wish behind a guise of ‘my human rights’
    I’m now coming towards the end of my nightmare with the CSA and it is still every bit as bad as it was right at the very start. Frustration is not the word, they are interested in one thing and one thing only, how much they can extract from the person who is classed as absent. If it does not fall into the equation they are not interested, if it is impacting upon your home life your health your work and many other factors that we all have to address in our life they are not interested.
    We have seen countless cases of people taking their own lives due to the incredible pressure that they have been put under trying to maintain payments whilst maintaining contact and having some normality of life. We have absolutely no idea of the numerous people who will have become a long term cost to the NHS through depression, and stress related illnesses. Nor how many have ‘uped sticks’ and left the country, becoming nomadic, opted for self employment or just given up and signed on. Are any of those really in the best interest of creating a country where fathers are encouraged to be part of their children’s lives and taking an active role in parenting.
    I have just had a £500 a month order placed upon me for my 17-year-old son and my 18 1/2-year-old daughter. I haven’t seen my 17-year-old son in over two years, the only communication I have been able to have is via social networks (when he can be bothered and I guess when mum isn’t aware). He expressed an interest in going to college to do graphics, the course stated that he required maths and English at level C, however it didn’t matter if he didn’t achieve this as the college would be able to find him a place anyway (bums on seats = revenue).
    My stance was very clear, I would support him going to college as long as he achieved the required result. The last 12 months in the school year was spent drinking large quantities of alcohol, partying and smoking weed (Parenting?). As you can imagine he failed all his exams but subsequently enrolled on the graphics course that he wanted to attend (amazing, so much for supporting parents). True to my word I stopped maintenance, if he had been living with me that is exactly what would have happened. Your not going to college your going to work – which in my book is fair.
    My daughter is studying A-levels and has listened to exactly what was required from her. I told her that I had no problem whatsoever supporting her through university and I would do this directly with her as she would be studying away. This is what we do with my step son and his father contributes a small proportion the same way it works its fair and its certainly not £500 a month that’s for sure.
    The CSA inform me that I have to pay for both children regardless of anything that may have been agreed or not agreed or failure to meet standards. I am not allowed to enter into an agreement whereby any thing is paid directly to my daughter, even though she is an adult. What Mum says/wants goes – excuse me where do I fit in to this?
    Daughter is rightly concerned now that she may well not be able to afford to go to college. I am also very aware that if I allow the CSA to take the £500 I will not be in a position to directly support her – Government, butt out your not helping. Where are my rights?
    My parental responsibility for my son has been kicked all the way down the street, he’s basically stuck two fingers up at me with my ex stood there rubbing her hands because she can collect 6K per year and no one knows how much gets to the kids (do they CSA).
    I am not only frustrated but appalled at how our Government passes the buck – 17 year old is kept off the unemployment figures because he is in ‘full time education’ 12 hrs per week (12hrs full time you are having a laugh) Mum has a vested interest in keeping son on full time education as long as possible because she is collecting income (payable until the age of 20 I believe). Next thing to do is make sure you keep the income below the grant level for Uni and further result because you aren’t then stumping any cash up yourself.
    Daughter does what is required and deservers to be rewarded for the hard work she has put in to maintain the results that she has been getting. Uni should be achievable but will it be? How do I know that the money will get to her?
    Those of us who are at the mercy of the CSA telling us how much we have to pay have no redress that is worth a jot. If its outside of the equation forget it. We are too few to have any power, we are all too busy trying to survive so we have little left to fight. Avenues of legal action are fruitless, we have no funds, no time, no knowledge – we just know that things are unjust but we can’t change it, don’t know how to change it. If I could I would fight like hell even though my benefit would be negligible at least others could benefit.
    The system will just leave you a frustrated and angry father with no voice – how sad is that in country which contains the word ‘Great’
    Great = Great at ripping off the easy targets.
    Britain = Mess because those in charge couldn’t organise one in a brewery!

  65. Observer says:

    GREAT post George.
    I too (along with 1000s behind me) would not hesitate for a second to class the CSA as a criminal organization.
    Interesting that Marilyn has avoided this thread. I find it sad that lawyers, who have the potential to be such GREAT opponents to abuse and inequality, actually profit (if indirectly) from it and so turn a blind eye.

    • Marilyn Stowe says:

      I am not avoiding anything! I just havent had the time to consider a reply due to work and personal reasons.

    • stephen curran says:

      I don’t know if you will ever pick this response up…..but if you do…..can you contact me by email?
      2016….very concerned….in the same situation.
      Stephen Curran

  66. Graham Taylor says:

    I have recently had a call from CSA about my son. My Ex Wife is very bitter that I am with someone else even though she was the one who commited adultary and broke up the marriage. She moved out of the family home, and I moved in with my partner. I pay all the bills for the home my ex and I own (still in both our names), however CSA do not take that into consideration. They have made their calculations, and despite being told 2 months ago, that I am responsible for another child where I live, they have not yet looked into that for the calculations. My Ex Wife also reduced the time my son stays with me, as she figured the less I see him, the more she gets. Basically she uses my son as a pawn to get more money. I am now wondering which debt I should stop paying so that I can afford CSA. Possibly stop paying the joint debt as this means they will chase her for the money too. This is having a huge impact on my wellbeing. I have no problem with paying towards my son, what I have a problem with is I am paying that, plus her debts off at the same time. She has her cake, and eats it too, while I struggle.

  67. John Clark says:

    My ex told the CSA I owed a boat, sports cars and motorbikes. Without any prove, CSA said I was earning more than that issued on my payslip (living beyond my means) and increased my payments. Spent money on solicitor who told me “forget it nothing can be done”. Under the stress had 20 strokes and left the UK.
    CSA cannot prove I own anything but refused to accept this.
    Letter sent to where I used to live saying warrant out for my arrest. Now can’t return to UK.

  68. Mr. B says:

    FAO: Paul Gilbert,
    Paul the CSA get away with so much is because people write letters of complaint to them, even if the letters are recorded they still ignore you or send a response that means absolutely bugger all. I have had some considerable success I was ignored by them because when you send the letters that letter stays in that business unit and there is no exposure and their dirty little secret stays in that business unit. So I email the complaints team which bypasses the inbred morons in the call centres but as well as emailing the complaints team I copy in many other people like my MP – ICE, Ombudsman etc I have quite an extensive list for you to use and it does get results. In your official complaint email name the individual staff members and make a complaint about them too. People have used the document and have had some excellent results they have been ignored for years by the CSA plebs but since they have used this method cases have been closed paternity tests arranged arrears reduced, consolatory payments made the list goes on.
    Best wishes

  69. Mrs k says:

    after 11 years and only 2 payments, one taken from earnings one from a bank account my ex is still avoiding paying.
    CSA informed me today that they cannot do any more to inforce payments. my ex has as much access as he wants.
    he become self employed for the same company to aviod attachment of earnings, they have informed me that they can not do any more.
    there must be something more i can do but what iv no idea.
    any help much apprisheated!!!

  70. Yvie says:

    Mrs K – would it be possible to come to an arrangement with your ex. without involving the CSA. The CSA has a lot to answer for as it seems to set one parent against the other with its high handed, one size fits all, uncompromising approach. It ‘s wrong when a father tries to avoid maintaining his children, but it is surprising the lengths that some fathers will go to avoid entangelement with the CSA. I hope you can negotiate something fair between you and your ex. which will enable you to close your case with the CSA and deal directly with your ex. In my view, that is the best way forward for the majority of parents.

  71. Thick Bleach says:

    Craig – Mr B,
    After many years of dealing with the CSA and their intolerable bias towards so called PWC’s I am now taking the time to complain. Years ago I was awarded a piddly amount for maladministration, but now after finding out the CSA are ignoring the fact that I have a daughter and refuse to supply a new calculation I am determined to keep on top of them and further demonstrate their incompetance. I’d be grateful if yo can supply me with additional areas of complaint as you describe…’s the etc part of your thread that I am interested in. So far I have five different offices looking at my complaint. So far I’ve received correspondence from the Appeals Dept. This amounts to incompetance #1. I’m not appealling, I’m complaining.
    Sadly this is the only pleasure i get from any dealings with the CSA. A shambolic, contrived, unfair organisation, a carbuncle on a Great Britain.

  72. Thick Bleach says:

    Question for Marilyn.
    Where does one stand when the the PWC has lied and fraudlently claimed about child paternity? The CSA are not interested in recovering any monies paid because they were paid directly.

  73. SteveWarwick says:

    Mrs K … You tell us YOUR story from your side you don’t tell us that the father of your kids prob buys them lots of things and takes them out and spends money on them and prob buys them clothes and does provide in lots of ways??? The CSA can ruin a mans life and make it hard for him to live yet you prob dont even work and have been living a free easy life just like my ex wife. I maybe wrong but most females tell the same sad story and dont tell the truth of the fact that your just greedy and that most men do provide and its the females greed that takes over for her own reasons not the childrens . My children see less of me now as i cant afford to take them out having £200+ each month taken from my minimum wage puts me in debt to bills i can’t afford and also makes me not able to take my kids out and treat them. So as i said its all about the females greed nothing at all to do with making the kids happy with there father in there life…

  74. Name withheld says:

    Hi since my ex wife devorced me and asked me to leave our familiy home, almost 20 years ago I have never missed a payment to her £150-per each month, in cash and personaly delivered by hand so i might see my duaghters grow up.
    She did not alow me to visit any other time.
    £150- each moth was quiet a lot of money almost 20 years ago and considering she had all of our family assets, including car, 100% owned house, shares, etc. Anyway this went on even after my 2 daughters lesft home and went to university. and since i have remarried with 3 childeren. (twins aged 6 and a nine year old as well.)
    When my older childerend from my 1st marrage were in their 20s, they were no longer at home for me to see on my monthy visits, so i asked my exwife for her bank details to pay instead, which i have done for the last few years.
    Over the years the CSA wrote to me damanding money as they belived that i had never paid anything.
    I always wrote back, and corrosponed to advise them i was paying directly as my exwife wanted.
    after not hearing from the CSA for 6 or 6 years they suddenly wrote back to me and damanded £47,000- as underpament of thier estamated assesment.
    My ex-wife admitted she had recived some money but not all, so they then issued a court summons for liability order for £32,000-.
    Last month I went to court with my new wife and childeren to prove i had already paid and also show them theier assesment was wrong as i do infact have depentant childeren, etc.
    The majistrates just told me that they have no power to listen to my case even though i may have proof and were not [prepaired to listen to my side.
    They issued the liability order without consideration of my evedence and proof of payment, for £32,000-.
    I have had to raise by borrowing this money in order to pay them and have paid them in full.
    My family including my wife and dependant childeren are now in direstartes finacialy due to theis life changing catastrophic and extraordernary kangaroo court hearing.
    My ex-wife is now sitting on a lotter sum figure and my adullt childeren now mid 20s do not comunicate with us.
    I have been told by the CSA court attendant that the only thing i can do is appeal to the sectery of state to question his law which alows this savage conduct, and told me i will need £100,000s of pounds to leagaly administer that process with all its fees and legal advisers.
    My family is broken in every way.
    This is an unbelivable story i know, but it must have happend to others?

    • mrs k says:

      no her farther doesn’t buy her things, clothes toys ect. we were both earning £500 per week in 2002, i can only work 2 days now, he works 5 to 6. we are in the same industry so i know how much he is earning, 3 times what i i am. but he will not contribute at all. yes i agree some mothers like to sit back and let the benefits come in, but i am not one of them. when my ex fills in forms to prove what he is earning and spending his sky, jaguar ect are all taken into consideration. i cant afford sky and my 12 year old Peugeot is on its last legs. now our daughter is in senior school it costs £15 a week in school dinners alone. never mine the uniform,shoes school trips ect. He can pick her up when ever he wants but usually manages 3 to 4 times a year. for 3 to 4 days at a time.

  75. Respondent says:

    Name Withheld,
    I suspect that your problem is putting your trust in magistrates. These people are usually even more incompetent than the CSA. Don’t waste your time with them, and take your case to the high court instead, where they are under obligation to use their brains. Also, by the sounds of it, you don’t have anything to lose by reporting your case to the media. Since it sounds like you are going to jail anyway.

  76. Yvie says:

    Hi namewithheld – I am very sorry to hear your story. I would be surprised if yours was an isolated case.
    My son was given a bill for arrears which he did not know he owed. He telephoned the CSA spluttering with indignation. He was sent a direct debit to sign which he objected to. Within a matter of days a DEO was placed with his employer. To be honest, although fuming at the high handed approach at first, my son knows that he has a record of payment which cannot be disputed. He requests a statement from them every six months or so. So far it has proved to be accurate and matches his own records.

  77. JamesB says:

    The problem is, like with the Border Agency, it’s not really going to sell newspapers or get politicians votes so the incompetancy doesn’t get dealt with.
    The CSA is bad, the UKBA are bad. We have no working system in either, everyone knows that, isn’t news.
    I think the ignoring of the two issues here is partially why the UKIP and other parties are on the up as politicians seem to be doing something far more important. Although to be honest noone really understands what it is they are doing that is so important and PMQuestsions seems to back that point up.
    I think the answer is to have publicly funded political parties and give MPs a pay rise then we might get some good ones.
    I have written to my MP on the CSA and the UKBA (for my wife) and he has been useless on both. As was the last MP when I wrote to him on the CSA. I don’t know if the UKIP is the solution, but the status quo politicians don’t seem to be able to do much. Theresa May for example is apparently a good one and perhaps a future PM, yet she has presided over the UKBA failing completely and the opening of the Borders.

  78. Sick of csa says:

    My husband has nothing but grief from the csa this is due to two very bitter ex’s who although hated each other are now best buddies! They make constant calls to the csa so my husband is constantly hounded!! One case was my husband couldn’t have his daughter at the time the mother “told” him & because he stood his ground she called the csa & informed them he had not had the daughter so payments went up, the csa took her dates as truthful & couldn’t care less what my husband said, we have learnt to log all contact!! Another time my husband needed a new car( I say new it was T reg so hardly pushing the boat out!) surprise surprise my husband received a call from the other ex so payments went up again!!
    The csa is a system ran by bitter twisted women who offer support to a load of bitter ex’s who have the number of csa on speed dial , this unfair system is only interested in 1 thing……. Screwing over their children’s father! Women shouldn’t be allowed to do it, the payment should be fairly decided taking both sides financial outgoings into account & not just the fathers!!
    My husband totally agrees that all should pay for their kids but this does not give the right to vile ex’s using a system to get one over! My husband has had to put up with contact being limited just so the doting mothers get more money! I use doting very lightly as no doting parent would use their child as a weapon!
    The money should also be shown to be used on the children! My husbands son has turned up at our house with his older half brothers oversized clothes, holes in his socks & shoes falling apart while mummy is uploading pics of her dodgy hair extensions & telling the world she can’t wait to open her Smirnoff lime vodka!!!!
    The other has more wine than blood going through her veins but tells my husbands daughter she can’t have as much food in the house as daddy doesn’t pay enough!!!
    The system absolutely stinks & before some woman jumps all over this I am not the evil new partner I have watched my husband go through hell , he is a brilliant dad not only to his own(when he’s given the chance!) but also to my 4 sons & our 2 daughters, he supports my kids financially as the boys father chooses not to!
    The sooner the csa are wiped out the better ! It will be one less weapon ( well 2 now legal aid has gone )for greedy so called parents to use

  79. BTS says:

    I read this post with interest and was pleased by the ruling, will it change the way the CSA operate? – No. I am in regular contact with the CSA, I used to pay through the CSA, not any more. Despite the regular payments my daughter would come for contact with no clothes, holes in her shoes, I was constantly replacing things, I had to replace all her electrical items such as Ipod DS as mother would not allow her to bring them for contact. Effectively I was paying twice. I now pay her direct and through the bank any additional payments I have can be balanced in the direct payments being self employed its easy to manage. She told the CSA I wasn’t paying anything, Then she told them the payments were a gift to her, then she admitted I was paying her child support. Now the CSA have come back again, threatening a summons, I sent them all the info they requested and they said they would get back to me, they never did. Today I have received a summons despite may many letters them, its dated 24th April, they have held on to it for 3 weeks and sent it with a covering letter dated 13th May. In my letters I asked them to give 28 days notice of a court summons. They have evidence I have paid my ex more than they have requested plus the clothes, electrical items, mobile phone. etc. I enjoy a good conflict with them and will continue to challenge them.
    The CSA will never change. the sooner they are disbanded the better. The worry is what will follow.

  80. JamesB says:

    Re ‘I had to replace all her electrical items such as Ipod DS as mother would not allow her to bring them for contact. Effectively I was paying twice.’
    Yes, I do that, clothes, everything as ex will not give anything for contact. I have to change them from tracksuits with holes in when they arrive and put them back in these tracksuits when they go back. Some people can get very angry and bitter.

  81. Sick of csa says:

    It disgusts me that women feel the need to go through life so bitter & twisted & use a unfair system as a act of revenge! Along with stopping contact to get more money. The system needs to take a look at these women rather than presuming all men are low life’s & don’t pay! If the system can’t work fairly then get rid! My husband was informed by some rude arrogant woman that the csa are in control of him!! The csa employee is now apparently under going communication training after we made a official complaint. All I can say is all those nrp’s who live with the stress of csa keep going , there has to be some breaking point & surely all the unfairly treated parents should be heard.

  82. Miss B says:

    Good to see the NRP getting some support on here. My partner has been divorced for 7 years, has never missed a payment which was originally agreed between them. Two months ago (following a threat of the CSA from the ex wife purely because my partner wanted to swap a week night stopover for another) decided he would do his own calculation based on the CSA calculator as in all the years of paying support he has never taken into account the nights the children are with him. It appeared he was paying too much so decreased the original family agreement with fair warning to the PWC that this was happening and why giving clear calculations how he came by the new figure.
    First we received a solicitors letter suggesting mediation (we chose to ignore) and then last week the CSA contacted my partner saying his ex wife had made a calculation enquiry on child maintenance and he would be required to fill in some forms to confirm his earnings so that they could clarify if the monies he is now paying is correct.
    I must say we have found the CSA both helpful and certainly not biased towards the PWC (maybe we were lucky) – we spoke at length with them on Saturday to get some further information so we knew what to expect when the forms did arrive.
    The forms did arrive yesterday so my partner called the CSA first thing to offer all the information required over the phone as was keen to get the matter sorted.
    The CSA calculated that my partner is actually paying the correct new amount and they would be contacting the PWC to confirm this. We asked if she could appeal to which they said yes but she would need to get proof from the NRP that he earns more than he is claiming to the CSA. The CSA seemed satisfied with the information given to them from my partner.
    Can the CSA’s calculation be overruled if the information given has been 100% correct – we felt there was no point being reserved on the truth as they will find out in the end.
    We now await to see if the PWC will try and appeal.
    To point out my partner is not disputing the monies he pays, he is just wanting to ensure he pays fair given the amount of time he has them overnight.

  83. Jayne says:

    Hi , I just wanted to say how unfair being a divorced dad is . My husband has two kids ( now 16&18) and has been paying the correct amount for 8 years . The problem is I feel is that he gave his ex wife a mortgage free house , £60 k in the bank and took all their £20 k debt with him , he took out £100 k life assurance for himself so if something happens they would be fine . At now 18 he called the CSA and they said we still have to pay until sept as he is going to uni and may have to pay until 20 yrs for his daughter depending what she does at college . We have a 5 yrs little boy and we are all struggling so much with a huge mortgage , health issues due to worry and stress over finances . He only left as she was so abbusive and shouted and yelled all the time and he couldn’t stand it any more but her solicitor knew everything to get her as much as possible . At the time he was giving her £500 a week , paying all the bills and she stayed in the house and he had to pay his rent also . She is the one that got legal aid and every financial help that was out there . The divorce took two years so she could keep getting loads of money as her solicitor wouldn’t give any of her financial information . In the end they did it without her declaring anything and two years ago she had an insurance come out and got another £30 k which my husband should have got half of . It’s all wrong , she has so much more money than we have and know debt but none of that is taken into consideration and also what he has given her already . We never go out and she goes on holidays and has new clothes and kitchen etc . She has poisoned the kids against their dad and has been vile . Any advice about what we can do , we are at our wits end , sorry for the life story but I hate it all so much and it’s making us ill and I worry about my child thanks

  84. Observer says:

    Like all of those blessed to have experienced this nonsense, I’m sure you’ve also been told over and again how this is all in your mind, and maybe you need to change the way you perceive things. And I’m sure you’ve said to yourself, oh, how doubly blessed I am now to be insulted by petty-minded bureaucrats, academics and lawyers to boot.
    Now, for the sake of the kids, I suggest you ‘keep silent and carry on’.

  85. single mum of one says:

    All I see is Dads complaining and moaning on about how they dont have money. Firstly, id like to say it isnt DADS rights. Its the rights of the parent who no longer LIVES with said child/children. When you pay CSA you are CONTRIBUTING to the childs way of living etc. Bills clothes food transport school uniforms shoes THE LIST GOES ON. If a child needs to get to school and the parent needs to get them there then thwy will need a car or bus fares petrol car insurance MOT. So many things are not paid for that its a JOKE and an INSULT that tuis page exists slagging mothers off for doing the hardest job in the world. I do not agree that because you are paying for a child that you get to see them. Parents SHOULD have the right to see their kids and it should be sorted out with regards to individual cases. Not every family is the same. Im a single mum and I do EVERYTHING for child. Her dad sees her regularly and he pays pennys in csa. My child is lucky to see a few quid. He works 30+ hours a week and worms his way out of paying anything. So dont preach rights when you dont know ha l f the cases out there. I scrape by and he sits back leaving me to do EVERYTHING and leaves me with no money to even cloth my own child. You tell me where the justice is for me and my child??

  86. VP says:

    The CSA stole £2500 from wages after I’d paid my dues and they said they would refund it but when I spoke to them on the phone chasing up the refund they Laughed at me and said you will never get a refund and your MP will never be able to do anything about it.
    Basically they were Boasting how they can get away with this level mal administration.
    Was this punishment for having already proven through ICE that they were guilty of mal administration ?
    My case has gone on for 20 years , it took 14 years before ICE found the CSA guilty of maladministration and the CSA awarded me £200 for this !!
    Then in 2008 when I thought it was all over
    The CSA suddenly started taking £200 a month from my wages , It took a year to stop this , I thought my MP had stopped it but when I finally got to speak to someone in the CSA at the beginning of 2012 they told me the reason they stopped was because they shouldn’t have taken it at all and that they had also received an email from my ex telling them to stop. I’d paid my dues for the liability period April 1994 to July 1997 and it took the CSA 14 years to accept the direct payments I’d made. But why did they start stealing money from wages in 2008 they Now owe me £2500 and my MP has done nothing to get this returned despite writing to him since 2008.
    Not sure what you do when the government give this level of power to an Agency that has been proven time and time again of mal administration and in my case they admit overcharge but refuse to refund, isn’t that THEFT ?

  87. John says:

    Write directly to the Parliamentary Ombudsmans office in London, giving them the full facts. Mark it as a complaint, and also state that your M.P. has not served you as they should!
    Failing that, there is always the Serious Fraud Office!

  88. JamesB says:

    CSA is to provide PWCs with ability to run a car. ROTFPML. Come off it. Running a car is surely a luxury these days. A child certainly has no need for a car. You want a car and you want the father to pay for it. Child can walk or get bus to school. Running a car is expensive. If you cannot afford it rather than moan about the father or government should pay for it. I suggest you sell it. Your entitlement attitude to having your cake and eating it I do not like. You want the lifestyle but think others should pay for it, blaming them for you not having it; therein lies the problem, right there.

  89. JamesB says:

    PWCs wanting to have it all without the bloke there and for them to pay for it, i.e. feeling entitled to pick and choose what they are entitled to. I.e. they can do what they like and others can pay for it, really makes me sick, it is disgusting.

  90. JamesB says:

    Absolutely disgusting.

  91. JamesB says:

    If she wanted to have the lifestyle, she should have kept the relationship good. Alternatively, find another mug/chap to support her in the manner she expects to be. Don’t go whinging to the government or CSA or lobbying anti men groups that is wrong. Sorry, got my goat that one. Stuck in my teeth and reminds me of my ex’s attitude as well as many others I dislike. It is self-indulgent bad rubbish and the reason for rise in Sharia law etc and other more natural law in this country. It is not good approach at all and is self defeating in the long run as men will and are voting with their feet not going with people with this attitude, e.g. marrying foreigners.

  92. JamesB says:

    Probably a troll, flaming. Well, that’s what they would call it if a fella wrote something counter to them on the gingerbread website and then ban him.

  93. JamesB says:

    Why are women given so much by the state? Seems a waste of money as it undermines society to me.

  94. JamesB says:

    Basically, if you want something you should have to earn it.

  95. Name Witheld says:

    Two years I have been fighting through the legal system to have contact with my children through a shroud of lies an deceit from my ex partner, and every public sector along they way took her word as oath and did not bother to ask my side of the story, it is terribly sad that in all this mess it is ultimately the children that suffer and we are in 2013 for Christ sake, I love my children to bits and so desperately as a father want to be able to bring them up and support them but the system does nothing to support this, I certainly welcome the judgement.
    I agree there are men that do not take responsibility for children but by the same token there are women who get pregnant for the wrong reasons, I think the long term solution for this is possibly a male contraceptive pill putting birth control on an equal footing for both sexes then there is no argument for either parent not to take the full brunt of the law and act responsibly towards their children.

  96. me says:

    I have tried for 13 years to get something from the father of my 3 children and now sadly it looks like it will never be. I work and provide for my children never ask for handouts , I feel like my chidren and I have been let down by staying with in the law. As for him seeing the children he can but he chooses not to. Let the tax payes foot the ball (again). I am not letting this lie without a fight I t this very moment.

  97. JamesB says:

    There will not be a male pill, the government will not sanction it as there would not be any babies if they did.

  98. JC says:

    I have just read through this thread as I have just finished the almost 20 pages of submissions for my CSA tribunal. I don’t know what to say about some of the stories here but they follow a pattern. This is a pattern that I believe has been bolstered by the morally bankrupt ‘profession’ in which Marilyn Stowe works. I have not met her or spoken to her; I have just read the various posts and seen her occasionally on TV. Unfortunately like most lawyers she appears to play for both sides whilst apparently assuming everything her client says must be true and/or if not defending the indefensible. Question for Marilyn, what proportion of your clients are fathers? This creates a situation where all principals leave the argument and how children become possessions and rights. The more this conflict progresses the more money a solicitor will earn irrespective of the outcome. If any lawyer (judges included as they are nothing more than old solicitors) really believed in children’s rights surely they would ascertain facts and specialise in dealing with only Fathers or Mothers, think prosecutor and defender. They would drop parents who lied about domestic violence and other allegations used to stifle contact. The additional problem in this is the Children’s Act fails to treat the parents equally; it starts well with the premise that the children have rights but then fails to support them by the outcome. It is interesting not a single law firm publishes the outcome and the total costs of cases it deals with; I think you all would be horrified by the details.
    I have been to court in family and other matters some 20 plus times and now represent myself. It is quite clear that lawyers and barristers will say anything or lie about anything couched as ‘instructions’ and these will be given value by the judge(remember lawyers aren’t allowed to accuse each other of lying, it apparently disrespects the court!) I have in my own case pointed out repeated material falsehoods by my ex’s lawyer and the judge/s do nothing about it. I do wonder what would happen if I did the same? We have a peculiar legal system where the judge is often the drinking partner of the opposing counsel or lawyer not least by membership of various associations or even worked together in the same Chambers. Ask your lawyer what family law associations they are members of and how many social events there are? Also why is it we have a legal system where you cannot adequately seek redress against an opposition lawyers behaviour? In my case I have proved the other side breached the Children’s Act in releasing information that identified my children outside of the Family Court, its apparently an imprisonable offence yet when reported to the Judge and Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) they did, guess what? Nothing, Zip, Nada….
    Dealing with the weird relationship of QC’s/Barristers and Solicitors I have yet to see anything done by the former that couldn’t be done by any reasonably intelligent person let alone a lawyer. Remember law is a Bachelor of Arts degree not Science or engineering therefore it is by definition not rocket science. A huge part of law is admin conveyancing is a case in point; the laws and acts behind it are readily available. If you don’t believe me google the curriculum for the LPC, it includes writing letters and arguments. Yet if you go to court as a litigant in person and are able to claim costs (family law does not have costs awards, although maybe if it did errant mothers wouldn’t waste so much of the courts time and legal aids funding) you can claim £19 an hour yet a lawyer who has ‘partner’ written on their business card and worked for 8 years(but may have never been to court) can claim over £400 ph in London and £200 outside, with even the most cabbage looking graduate able to claim over £130 per hour. And who made up these numbers lawyers! Who decided that family law should not have cost awards… you guessed it!
    Why am I talking about fee’s, well it’s the oil that corrupts the profession. If lawyers really believed in the rights and well being of the child they would seek to avoid conflict and would take steps to change the law to reduce the impact of family breakdown. Has anyone here heard any lawyer (including Ms Stowe) or judge suggest simplifying the process to remove conflict and creating presumptions of contact etc? Why don’t they? Because it makes them all money; irrespective of the outcome. CSA claims are no different, just follow the money. They all just seem to moan about reductions in legal aid!
    Overall the CSA is morally bankrupt just like the legal ‘profession’ I salute the lawyers who took on the case that started the thread but I do wonder what their motives were; I hope it was the principal of Justice rather than ambulance chasing. Either way it didn’t go far enough, the way the CSA works is this, first ignore the NRP and believe whatever the RP (normally the mother) says and make an arbitrary assessment of the liability that forces the NRP to appeal effectively reversing the principals of law. What should happen is once the CSA make an assessment if the NRP doesn’t agree the CSA should issue a claim (as per civil procedures) the NRP could then defend or accept the claim as they see fit. Instead the assessment becomes binding removing the claim and the NRP’s chance of a defence, therefore forcing an appeal. This means that the NRP becomes almost a de facto claimant as you are trying to undo the injustice. The basic principal of law is innocent until proven guilty so the CSA operates in a similarly unfair way to the Family Court. It is the NRP who has to prove their worth or lack of it in the case of CSA appeals, where the only winner is the legal profession and the outright loser is our children.

  99. JamesB says:

    I’ve just read through JC’s post and have two things to say.
    1. I too would be interested and ask Marilyn the same question please? Please answer. I just think father’s struggle more to get representation in this field as lawyers think they always lose and are less likely to pay. You might be able to disprove that assumtion in my mind to a degree.
    Question for Marilyn, what proportion of your clients are fathers?
    2. While on the subject of degrees, the writers assumption that BScs or Bengs or Beds etc are more intellectual or cleverer than BAs is nonsense and I need to take exception to that and point that out. For instance all degrees from Oxford Uni are BA’s and that’s the highest institution in the land. I could go on on that but its a side point.

  100. JC says:

    Hi JamesB
    The point I was making is that any half way intelligent person could do be a lawyer (and its not just me who says so. On the BA point (the BA being a bit irrelevant)in strict terms law is like doing a degree in history or sociology there is not a great deal of application or challenging reasoning compared to something like a science, engineering or maths degree. Also on the Oxford point I may be wrong but I seem to remember they used to give you an MA if you paid £10. That said I’m an employer and I really don’t care what qualifications you have, what I want is drive, ambition, honesty, courage, a willingness to follow instruction and focus on delivery. The fact you went to college for 3 years doing 20 hours of study and 40 hours of drinking each week is of no interest. If you have two degrees I am even less interested! Have I ever met a lawyer that meets the 6 tests….. not yet 🙂

  101. JamesB says:

    I think they get a BA (even in science) in Oxford and Cambridge, and can pay £10 to upgrade it to a MA after a few (2 to 5) years without sitting further exams.

  102. JamesB says:

    With re to Education for Education’s sake, I agree that it can be a bit dodgy. However, I think studying and a lifelong quest for learning is a good thing. By that I do not mean watching tv or talking nonsense about feminism and banning the daily star in the student union bars.

  103. JC says:

    Well there is a quality set of exams! We have got off the point here are the questions for Marilyn:
    1) If you knew the mother was lying about anything such as domestic violence would you still represent them?
    2) if someone came along making allegations such as DV, DA, Drinking etc what evidence do you expect from your client before or during representation?
    3) How many fathers as a proportion of your client base do you represent?
    4) do you agree that the opposing party is able to complain about you to the SRA/Legal Ombudsman?
    5) Do you agree with the principals of
    a) shared parenting
    b) presumption of contact between parents
    c) CSA proving their assessments based on evidence
    6) Do you think CAFCASS is fit for purpose?
    7) Should family lawyers have to advertise outcomes?
    8) Do you think that the penalty should be the same for:
    a) Child Abduction (by removal from jurisdiction by parent for indefinite periods (Hague Convention))
    b) Breaching contact orders for periods exceeding 3 months
    9) do you think the fact that the penalties for non payment of child support is more serious than for breaching contact orders is fair?
    I hope you will answer these questions fully

  104. Sjm says:

    can some one please advise. I have been paying over the last year my maintenance through the csa . My difficulty is that my monthly wage can dramatically change depending on the availability of overtime and other forms of income. This i pointed out to the csa at the time and a monthly payment figure agreed. I made a verbal agreement with my x partner that i would compensate any shortfull if i had a good month to her direct. Last year was a good year and i have given my x over 3000 in extra money to support our son with nursery and bills. My problem is that my x is requesting that i send my p60 to the csa. She is on benefits and i fear this may be an attempt to gain money that i have already given all be it not within my csa agreement. guess my question is,if i send my P60 in will i be liable for a percentage of the extra money i earned without the csas knowledge and if so will they take into account the money i have given directly to my x.

  105. Daimien says:

    Before I say anything I believea child should be paid for and I am doing so as I write this however I am going to challenge the CSA.
    Everyone thinks this agency has God like powers and can do what they want. They can if you consent to it however everyone reading this blog beeds to be aware of a few things firstly this.
    All of the people how answer to Mr, Miss, Mrs are answering to a legal work of fiction designed to allow “debt collection agencies” such as the CSA to claim from you. As a HUMAN BEING this work of fiction is not you.
    Second all the”Acts” such as the Section 26 92) CASE A3 of the Child Support Act 1991 are not Lawful for the Human Being they are OPTIONAL. They only apply to the legal work of Fiction/ Strawman.
    I am going to challenge this, as I want a family agreement with my Ex. I don’t want to provide a loop hole for people who just don’t want to pay. It just the way the CSA treat Dad’s like we have commit a crime or by the fact anyone can point the finger and say “he’s the Dad” and the case come after you like a rabid pack of wolves. You are treated like you are guilty until you prove otherwise

  106. Stewart Perkins says:

    Can any body help ? The CSA was informed of changes to my employment by my company I left, they are saying that as this was a third source and have back dated arrears over 10 months. As they was inform can they do this ??

  107. Daimien says:

    Hi Stewart,
    First off were you paying your maintenance,? With what I am about to do, I am still paying money to my ex as its not the childs fault. If you have been paying was this electronic so you have records?
    You have to view the CSA as a debt collection agency, they will tell you things they “can do” even when it is unlawfaul to do so. I would recommend getting past the “lacky” on the end of the phone and speaking to someone higher up.
    Also the problem with UK companies, is that if presented with an attachment order they will buckle and pay it. You will need to inform you employer not to do so. The CSA have done this to a large number of people unlawfully which has then caused financial hardship.
    What you also want from the CSA is the proof of what they are accusing you of.
    If you have been paying and keeping them informed of the situation and they try to take money from you. You would probably have a good case against them.
    Good luck

  108. Mum!!!!!!! says:

    To the mum of one, get in the real world, my husband and his Ex separated 11 years ago, (he left her not his children!!!!!) he has supported them mentally and financially from that day! But all of a sudden after the ex took him for everything and left him£16000 in debt through solicitors oh and had the house car and kids, she has now decided that the money is not enough and because he has worked hard and got a promotion she wants a bigger cut….oh and that’s because she is now renting out the ex marital home and buying a nice new big house….BUT in doing this the bloody CSA are taking the money from one family to another….they are nothing but a bunch of tossers who do not have a clue about the real world…..oh and not only is my husband expected to more than double the money he pays he has also since found out through social networking not the decency of the ex, tha t apparently his eldest is so disabled that she is entitled to a blue badge??????? Just a thought for you greedy good for nothing exs…..from a mother who does NOT use her children!!! X

  109. Mum!!!!!!! says:

    Not all fathers are bad!!!! My husband supports his children financially ad emotionally it’s the bitter exes that need to get a life & look in the bloody mirror!!! With love from a mother who does Not use her children !!!!!!

  110. Elisha says:

    Can anyone advise why it is the ‘word’ of the resident parent that the CSA follow slavishly? They are spending vast amounts of tax payers money pursuing non resident parents on the advise of the resident parent, despite this being lies.
    We have been paying monthly for 12 years now, no problem and willingly to support the children. In addition we pay all flights in the year for visits, holidays, additional clothing etc. We also pay £1200 extra a year for one of the children’s school bus (as we were threatened by the mother that if we did not, the child would be taken out of her school where she excels).
    None of the above is acceptable evidence to the CSA – despite furnishing them with bank details and receipts.
    Mos recently, the eldest child has left college, and is working prior to joining the Marines.
    We advised the CSA of this (and will continue to support the child) and that we would no longer pay the mother.
    The CSA have advised that the mother is still claiming Family Allowance for the child and the ‘rules’ state that if she is, we must continue to pay for the eldest also directly via them to the mother.
    The mother works, her new partner of six years who lives in the same house works and now equally the eldest works. No income assessment is made on the mother.
    We have received a letter advising that we have not given sufficient ‘evidence’ of the changes, they know the mother is still claiming benefits, and therefore it is our responsibility and that payments must resume immediately or the alternative is to pursue one of the Kangaroo Court Appeals, where the Tax Payer will once again pick up the bills for the mother, we however would have to defend the case at our own expense.
    The rules are clear, however, with one call from the mother, the CSA have taken this as gospel, no further investigations and the baton handed back with further demands for payments to continue.
    Any advice anyone?

  111. Karen says:

    Why is all I ever hear is about the rights of the Father/ NRP? What about the rights of the children? or do they not count? My ex is suppose to pay me £47 per week he has never paid and he now owes my children nearly £5000 – this is after all what it is for isn’t it? My ex left us I have three children with him, my youngest was born after we split she is four now and he has only seen her twice! Despite ME arranging for contact which he failed to show and mediation he cancelled time and time again my children are still going without. The CSA have informed me because of this new law and him being self-employed there is nothing they can do. So in a nutshell he can have three children hold no responsibility to them whatsoever not see them or take care of them emotionally spiritually or financially but as long as he has his “humans rights” that’s ok then! Well what about the human rights of my children? or are they suppose to suffer just to keep him happy – the whole system is a joke and once the CSA say they can’t collect there’s nothing else you can do!

  112. Tom says:

    the csa are a law upon themselves that needs a major overhaul my 16 yr old son lnever attended school yet born in November just found out that my alcoholic exwife has enrolled him in a wade training course witch he wont attend so she can get housing child benefit and more csa payments not only that what pisses me of the legal right for the csa to take into account my wifes income child tax credits to pay my ex wife and son moneys from there tax credits to the csa to pay them this is lunacy att the highest oeder

  113. John says:

    Back in 2000 I had a partner, we had broken up and I later found out that she was 6 months pregnant with our child. I was young but I did the adult thing and supported her though it. Abortion is always a touchy subject, but was too late by then and is always seen as the mothers decision anyway, “my body, my decision!”
    I had a fairly good job at the time and was still living with the parents. I was paying directly to her, but the mother was determined to get more money from me. Luckily my experience with the CSA was shorted lived, we got back together a year later and then she decided to cheat on me which caused us to split up. She later came to marry the guy and stated that they wanted nothing from me in regards to contact and financial support. She wanted to play happy families with our daughter and her new husband. We both thought it best for my daughter that she should be brought up in a stable family, she and her husband could give her that.
    12 years later the mother is now divorced and began looking me up. Hearing that I was now married and getting on with my life, she bitterly decided that it was now time that I should start paying and contacted the CSA. I was rather disappointed that she didn’t contact me directly first, I would have rather dealt with it outside the CSA. She stated it was because she didn’t want the stress or the aggravation, since when has the CSA not cause stress or aggravation? What a moron!
    I did a quick calculation based on the 2003 (Net Income) rules, which gave me a reasonable Child Maintenance payment of £600 a month which I am happy to pay and is more than enough for one child. The 2013 rules didn’t yield such an adverse result, so no quarrels there. I am however, being told that even though the case was opened again in September 2013, as it was originally opened in 2002, it would still be assessed under the very much outdated and convoluted 1993 rules. I know the CSA are incompetent, but surely they have moved all of the old cases across in the 10 years!? Am I naive to think so?!
    I’m still waiting to hear back in regards to what the assessment outcome will be, but I can imagine given how convoluted and unfair the rules are, will be significantly higher. I have a very stressful job and work in excess of 70 hours a week at times. This has caused significant and unnecessary stress. I have lost a lot of sleep and has began to affect my working life. It is only a matter of time before it starts affecting my health and mental stability. It seems really unfair and outright disgraceful that I should be assessed using an outdated system that was supposed to be phased out, especially when newer cases are assessed using the newer and fairer rules. I have also been assured that there will be no backdating to 2002, since she has not claimed a penny since 2002, but knowing the ruthless ways of the CSA, but could they potentially change their mind should they wish to screw me over?

    • Marilyn Stowe says:

      Dear John
      Dont get so stressed. Contact the Government organization called Child Maintenance Options (Google them) for either a web chat or a telephone call and I’m sure they will help alleviate your concerns. Both methods of contact are free of charge. Contact number is 0800 988 0988.
      The focus will be on agreeing an arrangement between you that both of you are satisfied with. It isn’t about “screwing you over.”

  114. Stitchedup says:

    Robert or John? don’t expect you to publish this comment, just a heads-up that you may have given the real name away or simply got the name wrong.

  115. mr smith ( for reasons) says:

    I have just had a letter from the new system of csa, which is directly linked to hrmc, so they can now know exactly what ur earning self employed or employed.
    the new system works the % of what nrp’s should pay on gross salary not after tax and N.I.
    I only earn 6.19 ph 39 hrs pw which comes too 241.41 before deductions, how ever I have rang there so called help line an asked what living allowances a nrp is allowed i.e gas water electric phone council tax rent/mortgage even fuel so I can get to work, the reply I got was NONE I tried to explain what I am earning is barely enough to pay living costs and any further out going would end up me losing my home, job or both. I did pose the question of basic human rights, they just chuckled an said its done on gross earnings no allowances at which point I hung up. if I had time I would type out the letter word for word as the way it could be interpreted would be as a scare tack tic. it also contradicts its self as they based the workings out on my self employed earning last year on my net but later on it stats all working outs are based on gross earnings.

  116. mr smith ( for reasons) says:

    any information on basic human rights and basic living allowances would be handy to know..
    over the next few weeks I will be seeking legal advice on this situation.
    my aveage wage pm is 950 out goings around 1100 so ive been doing overtime when available (not allways available) just to cover basics needs.
    what makes me laugh is that my ex has around 1600+ pm coming in via benefits/tax credit and other souces, which was just as much income as when I was living there with my old job. none of this is taken into consideration.
    I can now understand why so many fathers ended up moving away an not seeing they kids as they could just not afford to pay towards there kids.

  117. Allan says:

    So what happens when they have got you mixed up with someone of the same name as the real father?. The csa have taken £90 a week from me for the last three weeks even though over the last seven years I’ve had to prove they have the wrong man on at least three occasions they agree then make the same mistake again. They don’t care that I’m totally innocent don’t have any kids it’s just tough that you have the same name as the said father. These people are a shower , they have stolen money from me and are very blasé about the whole thing.

  118. larf says:

    Its strange when all things considered that to bring up a child that an arbitary figure of 15% of NRPs earnings (which can vary on per case basis) is taken, when the law states to live things like JSA is about £70 or a state pension is about £110 per week.
    I’m a trapped NRP through my own stupidity and trusting nature that contributes £800 pm through a private agreement albeit when I use the online calculator it indicates a figure closer £500. I’m not that fussed about the money, its the injustice and principle of it all and how us men are persecuted for being programmed to shag.

  119. Andrew says:

    What shines out is this: in disputes about contact evidence about money should be rigorously excluded. In disputes about money evidence about contact should be rigorously excluded. If necessary the entire statement should be taken off the file and if that leaves the errant party with no evidence, well, so be it. The two matters must be kept entirely separate.

  120. ALI says:

    thats why people in the east, middle east and other don’t give these stupid women powers, you give them a little power and that’s it they will get a big head and they are the kings and queens

  121. Name Witheld says:

    With case apply to cases in The republic of Ireland as well.
    I have paid maintenance since my ex destroyed our home.
    I recently went to court and explained I have not paid maintenance because I lost my job and I will reinstated payments and pay arrears once I find employment.
    All the judge kept saying if you don’t have most of the arrears next court case you will go to prison. Also he refused to let me see my sons. So it is not only the women who use the kids as weapons. I must also add she kid napped the kids and went to Ireland but the courts don’t see anything wrong with that. Further more if they put me in prison and also I can not see my kids. But what people don’t understand, the courts and the mothers main objective is one and the same to destroy father hood and deprive us of our children.

  122. Gary says:

    My ex moved to N.Ireland with my 2 young sons while still under a court injunction. I stupidly did not take it any further as she promised me our agreed contact in my home of residency in UK. I did this so the children would be settle in a new home and her mother was sick. I pay her the correct amount by the CSA each month plus I have to travel/accomidation to N. Ireland which is about £7000 a year. All my money goes on this.
    As at present she is only allowing my sons to see their Grandparent/cousins and friends once a year where they lived. This is because she says they are unsettled there in Ireland and wants them to them to forget about all these relatives and friends thinking she will change their minds. This is having the opposite effect on the children. Also she does not have a job and I am black mailed with the state of the children’s cloths and shoes are in and pay for her travel when they come across to visit me as she can see her friends and wants more money for this as she cant afford.
    I self cantered mum like this is a crime in its self. She wants the life she had before separation and she chose this not me, things don’t work like that.

    • Marilyn Stowe says:

      Dear Gary
      Go and see a solicitor now. You may still be able to make an application here in England but if not then in NI. It’s worth getting advice. Don’t give up.

  123. Miss my kids says:

    My ex used slanderous allegations in 2009. Been fighting to see my 2 kids since. With my career I need a clean CRB. Guess what? CSA do not care if your career is affected, they want the ££££££, and they will take you to the cleaners. I tried working with the CSA, informed them about the CRB, they just say it is between you and the mother of your kids. I am hoping they take me to Court, then I will ask for a clean CRB in order to pay what they want me to pay. At the moment, I pay what I can and as much as I can, then I get bailiffs coming over.
    All I can say, Child Support should be paid based on how many hours you see your kids i.e if you see your kids 1 hour a month, you pay £20 Child Support per child. Maybe that way, more kids will have contact with their fathers.

  124. Miss my kids says:

    @ Karen, I agree with a father taking responsibility of the kids. I would do anything for my kids. What happens if the mother does not want the kids to have anything to do with the father? So in my situation how can I be there for my kids? How can I give them the emotional support and encouragement they need? It is 4 years I have not seen my kids, paid £30000 in legal expenses to see my kids, yet that does not get seen. Yesterday was my daughters 8th Birthday, where I can not call her or send a birthday card that if I did, I would be up for harassment. So now who should get blamed? Me or the mother?

  125. Miss my kids says:

    @George, been there, got the t-shirt and the trophy. CSA could not be bothered about the allegations and how they can affect your work and everything else.
    Maybe like I said, child support should be calculated based on how many hours you spend with your kids. £20 per hour of contact. £0 if you do not see your kids.
    Is there a law in this country one has to ask?

  126. sean says:

    I’m self employed. By the Csa own calculation I earned £178 per week last year they wanted £30.50 Of that so sent me a bill of over a grand. I live in a one Bed flat the cheapest by far in my town and that’is £138.46 per week so there left me £10 to pay my council tax which is £25 . I’m in debt by £15 without food or any other bills. The ex stil smokes 20 fags a Day and drinks a bottle or two of wine per night while being signed off work for a non existing bad back. don’t get to see son I love dearly constantly stressed what happened to the fair society I remembered.

  127. Miss my kids says:

    @Sean, I know that feeling, I am self employed myself. Now the ex wants me to support her. I told in a polite way, the right fist clinched, with lower arm pointing upwards and my left on the inside of my right elbow, just like us Italians do it. With me if I do £1000 worth of work in a month the CSA want 90% of that.
    I gave up in trusting the Law, Police, Social Services, CAFCASS and the government. There is NO FAIRNESS ALL ONE SIDED and we know which side. I would just like to say not all women are vindictive like some ex’s.

  128. sean says:

    Governments happy to bail the banks out but destroy the working mans Ability to take care of himself. I’ve tried to appeal but they obviously like sending men into desperation and helplessness with there financial slavery which is what the have done to me. My sons in counseling because he misses me and his grandparents brother extended family etc and I have no address phone Num or anyway Of contacting him because she’s fucked off with some alcoholic scumbag who beats the Shit Out off her bit of carma I suppose but not healthy for his development . And I Have no say in his wellbeing without address can’t even serve court papers on her Yeah that’s a fair system with the child’s interests being served! if your male in this country your better off in the ground. I would be better off Signing on at least my rent would be safe what a joke! Why can’t Csa give me her address so I can at least fight for his interests.

  129. mark says:

    So much anguish, so much anger, all of it so unecessary.
    The system needs to be demonstrably fair to both PWC and NRP. To that end, the income of both parents’ should be assessed, and each parent should pay the same percentage of their income towards their children.
    The details of how this may be done may be quite complex, but unless we are driven by the principles of fairness and transparency a large proportion of separated parents will remain locked in perpetual acrimony. This cannot be good for the children.

  130. Allan says:

    8 weeks down the line I’m still paying for a child who is not mine through the incompetences of the CSA, they don’t care they know this child is another mans I’ve even offered to have a DNA test to prove I’m not the father, they have told me this is not possible as they know I’m not the father! I am at my wits end I’ve contacted my mp but still nothing has changed. I’ll be bankrupt by the time this gets sorted, what lengths do you have to go to to get justice?

  131. Luke says:

    Blimey – it is hard to read some of this stuff so I can’t imagine what it is like to live it 🙁
    Every man should be forced to read this Blog before he gets married…

  132. decent pwc says:

    The fact is whether you see your child 1 hr a week or they never want to see you ( because some men really are crap dads) they are still your children and require feeding and that they s clothing. how weird that they should want such luxuries. They are..humans not robots. The CSA needs powers to deal with flagrant non providers

  133. Luke says:

    “The fact is whether you see your child 1 hr a week or they never want to see you ( because some men really are crap dads) they are still your children and require feeding and that they s clothing.”
    They certainly need providing for – but contact should be a requirement – even if the child legitimately doesn’t want it and therefore supervised contact is required.
    Not providing contact and there being no punishment for that just WON’T DO.

  134. Gladstone says:

    Hello. I would like to share an overview of my experiences and will remain objective where I can.
    I have been paying child support through the CSA for the last 12 years. In 2004 for example the CSA claimed I had not paid around 2,000K. I proved that i had and the CSA wrote to apologise. Low and behold; in 2012 they claimed that I had not paid the very same amount of 2,000k back in 2004. The CSA tried desperately to avoid that fact until the ICE subsequently checked and confirmed that I’d already paid.
    In 2007 I made a bulk payment of 1,200K to the CSA. Then in 2012 the CSA claimed I owed 1,200K from 2007. It took the referal to the ICE to show that I had already paid that amount back in 2007.
    Between 2005 and 2007 the CSA failed, I only found out in 2012/2013, to assess me properly leading to arrears (around 6,000k) that I had no knowledge of. My CSA payment schedules showed that I had been paying the requested amount each month. Referal to the ICE showed that that was clearly an error on behalf of the CSA and not mine and the CSA should have managed my account much more effectively.
    Between the end of 2008 and 2009 I provided the CSA with a total of 9 payslips on two occasions. The CSA said they would contact me with a new assesment. They did 18 months later in 2010 and suggested all manner of unpleasantries if I did not pay there and then. I started to pay the arrears as I accept my responibility as a father despite having, now, not seen my children for over 5 years.
    A year later the CSA, out of the blue, provided me with a summons (yes an incorrect one where they palce the burden of proof on you). The CSA would not listen to my complaint that I had paid save for the period where they had not assessed me in 2008 – 2010 and that was already being collected anyway (and also consider also that as far as my bank statements and CSA schedules showed I had never not paid the required amount). The CSA claimed I owed $14,000k; my records showed nothing like that.
    Fortunatley I had kept every bank statement, every payslip and every piece of correspondence received from the CSA over the last 12 years ( an beyond). The CSA were not interested and continued with their Liability Order believing they could not be wrong. The Magistrate even said in Court that they sympathised with my predicament but at that point the law stated that the CSA only needed to prove one missed payment. The CSA chose a notional date in … 2009. Yes, 2009 when they had not assessed me at all or requested any payment. No wonder the CSA Court representative; Angela Murgatroyd was trying to conceal her shaking right hand when she made her request.
    Anyway, i referred the matter to the ICE who are dilligent and approachable. The CSA had already ignored the 1st letter i sent via through both my solicitor and my MP and only responded when they both wrote a second time to chase them.
    In September 2013 the ICE provided a 28 page report on the failings of the CSA and stated that in their view i had received ‘exceptionally poor service’ form the CSA.
    To date the CSA have ignored the ICEs recommendations and refuse to discuss them further. I am left with $5.00p a day to feed and cloth myself, etc. When I challenged a CSA manager; James Gilliver, on 24/12/13 as to why the CSA have not dealt with the ICEs recommendations he said (in a recorded conversation) “… the CSA do not need to pay any attention to the recommendations of the ICE… “.
    I have written to Iain Duncan Smith (S/S DWP) and his office sent the matter back to the CSA who have done nothing. So I have written again to the DWP suggesting that i will return to Court to have the Order suspended or overturned if the CSA won’t deal with the problems and arrears they have caused and allow me to repay at an affordable rate. I have highlighted the comments of Mr Gilliver in relation to the ICE. I have also added that if the CSA does not need to pay creedance to the ICE then what is the purpose and the powers of of the ICE.
    If I can offer any advice it would be to keep every single letter, every bank statement and any documents to do with the CSA. If I had not kept mine the CSA would still be trying to take $14,000k and I’d never have proved to the contrary.
    Also, ask the CSA for all communication to be in writing only and for no further phone contact. The CSA have to comply with your request. The CSA have ‘lost’ some salient calls that i had requested and i reported these and other Data Protection problems to the ICO who upheld my complaints.
    Thank you; I expect yet another rather challenging year 🙂

    • mark says:

      This happend this year to me. I paid £12,300 of arrears and was told how much per week to pay for rregular maintenance of which I never missed a week, 1of the 2 dependents became of age in 2009 things looking good! Only in 2010 they get in touch demanding £ 3,434.00 when I challenged this they said it was from earlier years and they missed it out when they issued the first figure mentioned at the beginning. So after arguing it out with them and my MP they set out a 2 year plan to clear it !. Again I never missed a payment and took me from aug 2010 to aug 2012 to pay it off, I continued my regular maintenance till aug 2014 when my second child became of age and I was finally free of the csa. Though it was august I finished paying, the csa only got in touch december to tell me I had finished and were going over the case and will be intouch. 31 dec 2014 I receive a demand for £ 1,984.00 I askthem how if I paid every week never missed a payment? They said its from 2010/2012 I went over payments with them turns out arrears being paid to both but csa only went and paid majority of it most weeks to first child leaving second child looking like there not geting paid so this has grew into this new bill that really isnt a bill all they have to do is deduct the over payments to first child and put to second child account this clears it up. Thats to easy they are doing a full reveiw again trying there best to fibd some monies even though my case was closed in august 2014. Cheeky B*****ds.

  135. Stanley says:

    After reading the above comments and scarry stories why are we allowing this travesty of justice to continue.
    The csa are a sexists dictatorship with one goal to destroy the lifes of Dads that are in the majority paying there 15% of there gross income to support there children.
    I too have suffered total melt down by the csa.
    Sending the police to my place of work claiming I was suicidle and depressed.
    Listening to my exes ludicrass claims of my income and persuing her claims via enforcement orders debt collectors threatening phone calls and numeriouse phone calls at work.
    4 years later and three tribunals all agreed with my wage and figures. The csa still ignored three apeal judges instructions and persued there imaginary claim for £14.000 under payment.
    The csa will stillignore there judgement but you have at least got a sort of victory over the sexist csa.
    I was a single dad for 6 years and never got accepted by the csa to persue my ex wife to support her son and guess what when he decided to move back to his mum.With in twoweeks they were all over me.
    Even all the things that i had bought for my son were not taken into account.
    I have lost all contact with my two children.
    During these four years my health and business has suffered and to top it all . The csaare imune from prosecution for ruining my life my business and my relationship with my children.
    Thank you Tony Blair for creating amonster the csa.

  136. Gladstone says:

    Hello, Gladstone here. Just reading some of the messages above and wanted to make something clear for all:-
    If the CSA tells you at any time that it is LAW that the CSA collect any arrears within TWO years then this is UNTRUE. The Law does NOT state that. The TWO years is only an objective / guideline for collection created for the CSA.
    I was told that this was Law on more than one occasion to find out it was completely untrue. I considered this to be misrepresenation of the Law. The CSA were asked to provide the tapes under a DPA request. The CSA ‘lost them’ within a few days of the last of these particular incidents (suprise?). However, the ICO and ICE still justified my complaints over this.
    So, it’s up to you, but if it does get mentioned if I were you, I would challenge any such statement by the CSA via a complaint. Every formal complaint that the CSA have to deal with goes against the ‘figures’ for which they are measured; raise the figures for complaints (and referal to the ICE) and the CSA Senior Management have to justify the figures to the DWP…….
    Forewarned is forearmed. 🙂

  137. jb76 says:

    Can anyone give me october 2013 i received a call of the csa saying in 2011 my ex made a claim but the csa hadnt contacted me to let me know therefore running up a 2000 pound debt and also csa told me my ex had fogot about the there anything i can ive tried explaining to csa how can i run up a debt i knew nothing about and why do i have to pay and also i have been paying my ex and have bank statements but they say its my word against hers.anybody got any answers please.

  138. Gladstone says:

    jb76: Probably the best course of action is to:-
    (1) get all the paperwork together including bank statements for the period of 2011 and 2013 to show you may have been paying approximately the (subsequently) assesed amount.
    (2)place a written complaint with the CSA setting out the problems that have been caused, etc.
    (3) Wait the allotted amount of time for the CSA to deal with the complaint and when it is closed, and get that in writing, then have the matter referred to the ICE and bring it to the attention of your MP.
    (4) from now on keep every piece of correspondence to and from the CSA and keep every payslip and bank statement you receive for the next few years.
    If that does not resolve the problem then conside refering the matter to the Parliamentary Ombudsman.
    I would also expect, as I have found, that the CSA will try to get some of the very same money out of you again in a few years because they seem to dispose of paperwork and then run an audit and place the onus to prove otherwise on the NRP. It is really important to keep all the paperwork I have mentioned above.
    Hope this helps a little 🙂

  139. ExDad says:

    Have not had time to read all the posts but the 30 or so that I did read and the skim over several more, causes me to say that you, men in particular, need to broaden your focus. I am in Australia, am an ex pat, and ‘lost’ my two children in the early 80’s, courtesy of the ‘Family Court’ here.
    To make a long story short, I had since then, been denied access for years, except when it suited the ex due to ‘party time’, or ‘going away for a good time’ time. My complaints to the court got me 3 appearances over roughly as many years, with judgement going my way, BUT, admonishment was the punishment the ex got, whilst I was ‘awarded’ more and more access time!! HA! What a joke! I had as much access as before, and complaints to police and every politician that should have made a noise, got me platitudes, even ‘up’, to the Attorney General. He agreed that, “yes”, the law states that this was contempt of court and yes this was punishable by a prison sentence, BUT, “You don’t really think that they will put a mother in prison, do you??”
    The ex moved with her boyfriend and our children as often as possible without notifying me or the court, and all I got from said court was that I needed to take her to court!!!!!!
    The main point of my rant though is, take a look at how many other countries ‘Famiglia Courts’ have this anti-father ethos. Ours was created by a Labour (they call themselves Labor here) MP, who’s bio states he was ‘a devout Catholic’! Afaik divorce is an anathema to Catholics so why would a ‘devout’ one create a court that facilitates divorce, especially ‘no fault divorce’? I have my own thoughts on that. How does a child develop without the original father figure, with just ‘blow-ins’ as replacements?
    Also forget about incompetence, and think hatred, not from you but from the types employed to administer the ‘justice’. My direct experience with the ‘authorities’ here opened my eyes and cleared the naïveté. The most obvious was the arrival of 6, yes 6, police cars, as I attempted to just drop off Christmas presents that I had had for 12 months, due to the ex moving house as per. She had, it turned out, lied to the police(I have my conversation with the police on tape and they agreed to it) and told them that there was an Apprehended Violence Order against me(look up AVO) which obviously there was not, but before our conversation I was ordered not to move except to put my hands on the roof of my vehicle. This was shouted from one officer who leapt out of his car and squatted (I swear!) with his gun in hand, behind the front of his car. Another did almost the same, sans gun. This was middle of the day, in a quiet wealthy suburb. Fortunately somebody worked out that I was not Lex Luthor, nor Sweeney Todd and it calmed down to 2 cars and said conversation. I was told by the 4 police (2 per car)after they had spoken to my ex, that “she won’t listen to reason, and it’s best that you just go”! So much for the law. I asked if I could at least leave the presents and they concurred. My 2 children were watching through a house window all this time, and I just saw the anxiety and left the presents on the door step. They waved as I went and I tried to phone when I arrived home, but natch, the phone was ‘engaged’.
    I finally found and contacted my children, in 2006! They are both ‘ill’, and I was told that their ‘mother’, moved 25 times during the years I could not find them. The police told me it was “a domestic dispute” and “nothing to do with them”, when I had asked for help numerous times.
    Enough, too many bads, as I saw my children only for ten days, before they went back to “tell Mum we are coming to stay with you” and finalise their stuff. That was when the vile emails started, and they never came back. ‘Mum’, removed herself and them from the electoral role, and I started all over again with the search.
    SCRAP all ‘Family no-fault-divorce Courts’ and get back to ‘Actions have consequences’ courts. I have found out that 94% of divorced fathers here, do not get custody, but at least it seems that joint custody is now possible. Too late for me. Trust my grammar is reasonable etc.?

  140. ExDad says:

    Note: My father died in the UK on 27th of December, of prostate cancer. I have not seen him since the middle 60s and he has never seen his grandchildren, nor spoken with them. Some world!

  141. Tristan says:

    Aussies just want to soak up as much American culture as they possibly can including guns and forms of spelling.

  142. Luke says:

    Lord Justice Ward said the ruling had been made with “considerable reluctance” and in the full knowledge that it could “emasculate” the CSA’s ability to extract money from recalcitrant fathers.
    This is disturbing, Lord Justice Ward seems to be saying that he likes the status quo but reluctantly has to rule against the CSA because if he doesn’t he would be letting them get away with behaviour that turns the burden of proof on its head. Obviously if he did that it would have wide reaching ramifications that trump his desire to assist the CSA.
    The department is now thought to be considering an appeal to the Supreme Court.
    Really ! – and exactly what argument are they going to make ?
    “Well Your Honour, we want to accuse any Joe Blow with kids of anything we like and then he’s got to prove that we’re wrong – and if can’t then we can send him to prison. OK ?

  143. Jason says:

    I have paid all my CSA payments until they informed me They had closed my case, then some months later They said I was in arrears, the only reason this happened was because of their (CSA) incompetence, Now having continued paying till my son was 18 they have sent me a letter saying They have closed my case, Three days later I recieved a phone call from a Joe asking me to tell him my national insurance number as they are going to take payments from my pension for the arrears, which I have incurred through the total incompetence of the CSA.
    Surely this cannot be right, how do I fight this total injustice!
    Can I quote they are infringing my Human Rights as per Lord Justice Ward!!
    I would welcome your thoughts on this totally injust system

  144. jm says:

    The important message here is for the CSA and law to try and correctly and fairly determine exactly what is an “irresponsible parent”
    99% of the time is the man that is called irresponsible and made to pay and the woman and children always the “victim”
    so are we saying that every man that is registered with CSA had done something wrong and ran away from his responsibilities? Are we saying that the woman never did anything wrong? Oh dear, wouldn’t that be legally classed as prejudice and defamation? There are much bigger problems on the way for the future of CSA!!!

  145. Joe says:

    No house or job, don’t worry. Women have another option…
    Find some sad bloke looking for what he naively thinks and has been indoctrinated into believing life is all about i.e. a wife and to raise a family. Make sure he has a good work ethic, a career that he enjoys is ideal PAYE is preferred as those men that are self employed can be awkward and able to hide their assets. Get pregnant, kick the guy out, no reasons required, you do not need to explain your actions for this. Phone the CSA and the benefits agency and it’s all sorted from there on. Feminism behind the scenes has ensured that a well deserved benefits package including a house await you for all your hard work and effort.
    If benefits and maintenance are not enough for your required life style simply repeat the above steps to top up your child maintenance payments. Do your maths and make sure you have further children with different men. You will then receive 15% of each mans income rather than 20% to 25% of just one mans income, no brainer really.
    Kick back and settle into a life of luxury, laugh at the suffering of the men you have wronged whilst all the time declaring the scales of equality are unfairly stacked in favour of men.
    It is unfortunate that approx 5% of cases may go in favour of the men obtaining custody of the children, so you only have a mere 95% chance of pulling this off. I’m sure feminists are working hard though behind the scenes to try to bring this closer to the magic 100%

  146. Waksman says:

    All very interesting comments and observations. I myself have just received a Csa letter stating I owe a ridiculous amount of money based on a salary I earnt two years ago. Since then I found my wife was having an affair, was extracted from the marital home, at which she moved her boyfriend in, they sold the vast majority of my personal and joint possessions and she extracted short of £6000 additional from my bank accounts.
    We are going through a legal process to resolve a divorce including what I should rightfully pay in maintenance for my daughter, who may I add I see every weekend and during the week on one or two nights as time allows (I don’t live that close). My soon to be ex wife has now jumped on the Csa band wagon despite me having lots of contact. Her mother has a life of luxury with two good incomes coming into the household, has no real time with her daughter and when my daughter is at home with her mom she goes to work at 7 and returns around 7. The money she wants is to support her abnormal activities such as spending all her time at the pub or out in town, she displays this all over social media for the world to see. I have only just received the letter from the Csa this morning and as I can’t afford legal representation I am wanting this included in our divorce, she has asked for a clean break order which I can only assume she has something to hide including a property she has been left by her nan in a will some ten years ago which she has failed to declare and that has had tenants in. We are not all absent fathers not willing to pay, it’s just sometimes we are easy targets and money quite clearly talks. My options are that I give up employment or make an application to have my daughter full time but I know her mom would do what she could to stop that like she has previously like shower her with gifts, money and days out that last a few days but being young my daughter doesnt recognise this. What do I do?

  147. j says:

    hi everyone quick question, i was once married with 1 boy of my own between me and my ex wife and my ex wife had 3 children to other guys , i was stabbed in the face with a knife by my stepson at the time whilst my 3 month old baby was sleeping in bed beside me and my ex wife , i have been left permanently scared phyiscally and i have had no contact with my son since that day ive take threats of her family so im in a situation where i can never see my son without constant harrassment ,i pay child maintenance of my benefits and if i go back to work why is there no calculation that i dont see my son at all where as i have to press that i see him Less than 52 (less than once a week) why am i forced to go through with something thats not true i dont see him at all , CSA need to realise that i can never see my son again or if i do i could end up getting stabbed again i cant win this whole situation is wasting my life

  148. Gladstone says:

    Hello again.
    Finally had a verbal admission from the CSA (courtesy of a Ms Kate or Kath Preston at the Agency) that the CSA were responsible for the arrears they caused on my account. The CSA has been avoiding the question all along. A very useful statement for future / pending litigation but lets see if the CSA manage to lose the call recording again ….
    However, not content with having maladministrated my account for the previous 12 years they have now managed to continue that trend over the last 10 months. The CSA have been taking too much from my wages. They failed to examine the amounts despite continued representations and today Ms P said the CSA were not going to return the outstanding money because there were arrears on the account. And who caused those original arrears…. the CSA!
    Sadly Ms P became quite flustered when I asked to speak to her manager and hung up! My father was present during the call and thought my conduct and tone on the phone was acceptable but he thought that Ms Preston hanging up was the height on poor manners and he is not one to side with me if I was ever wrong either.
    No wonder Ian Duncan Smith failed to respond to my letters earlier in the year when he has a department that has failed in every avenue of their business towards me ……. 🙂

  149. mary please help says:

    I have always paid for ‘my son’who is now six. In 2009 his mother contacted the csa and we began to sort maintenance via them. I have never missed a payment and have always seen my son. Last year through the admission of a friend I found out he may not be my son. I immediately rang the csa and asked for assistance with dna. I was told that I would not be helped by them as I did not question him being my son in the beginning of the claim in 2009. I did a home dna test which cost £100 and found out he was not my son. I was devastated. I contacted the csa to tell them the result and was told that I would have to keep on paying csa until a legally binding dna test was done which required his mothers dna. I was told they would not help me and to contact a solicitor. I took there advice. I have been battling with his mother to get the legal dna test done. She has delayed it every way possible. She shows no remorse for what she has done. I have to pay for the legal dna test to be done and for legal representation to free me of the csa when he is not myson. I have been told I will only get payments back from when I raised the doubt. What about the thousands in csa I paid before? She knew at very least there was a possibility I wasnt the father and never informed me of this. I am being punished for believing that the baby my girlfriend of several years was pregnant with was mine. I did the right thing. If she told me she was cheating I would of questioned paternity from day one. I have been decieved by my and punished by the csa for what was a fraudulent claim against me. How far can I take this? I will be the first case in the uk to fight this if I can. Its deception and fraud. If a woman has slept with more than one man around the time of conception and pins fatherhood on one man without telling him of the other men surely this is fraud? Where do I go next? Many thanks

  150. Gavin Scott says:

    Marilyn has asked me to reply to your question. I am the managing partner at Stowe Family Law’s London office.
    Firstly, you must complete the formal DNA test. If that result supports your previous test, provide it to the CSA, confirm under sections 1 and 3 of the Child Support Act 1991 that they had no authority to take child support from you and request a repayment of all of the sums you paid to them. If they refuse, you can take it further, however, I would recommend that you take further advice before doing so.

  151. Duncan says:

    I would just like to say when I read through I realize I am not alone and the CSA have not just got it in for me, I have paid maintenance through a mutual arrangement of £90 a week along with this I have been denied access to my girls. I have never forgotten christmas or birthdays in the past 2 years. the last time I turned up to deliver a prezzie I was old through the door leave it on the step and dont come back. within a week I received a lawyer letter if I go near the house or send anything through the post it will be deemed as harassment and I will be arrested, along with a letter from the CSA upping my maintenance to £586 a month this was based on my earnings whilst working away and getting subsistance money to do so , the CSA claim this is income!!!!!!! I have tried and tried to explain this to the CSA but they dont care they will not even let me prove my income now. I am looking at the law 4th May 2006 as i was not married to the mother and the girls births were before this date then I legally have no parental rights and responsibilities . I cannot afford a soliciter and cannot get legal aid. The whole system makes me want to give up my job and the new life I have got myself.

  152. yes yes says:

    hello all i have just had to leave my job i worked 160 hours a month for a take home of £1000
    id been fighting a csa “arrears” claim for roughly 6 years they cliamed i owed 14k for my tie in the armed forces ( 6 years)during this time i supported my ex and she has stood in court and admitted infront of a magistrate this.all my time in the forces i had never heard of the csa and certainly not reccived any letters from them.without contacting me at all they approached my employer and demanded £400 a month from my wages…( for money i didnt owe) they said i owed 21k arrears and they wanted it all paying back? i phoned them and asked why they was breaking the law and stealing money i didnt owe? there answer was asfar as we are concered you owe and your going to pay, i said i only earn a grand a month my rents £500 a month gas and electric is £100 a month and council tax is £100 a month thats before we talk about food clothes running and upkeep of a vehical and all the other things we pay through the nose in the uk for.they told me they was quite happy to leave me in debt to the sum of £200 each month if i was to pay all my bills. to which i asked them but ill have to stop paying either rent heating and power or my council tax one of which i can go to prison for the other ill simple have no power or heating where i live and unable to live there or get kicked out. there reply was “just dont pay your rent squat you have rights as a squater” i couldnt believe my ears i asked her to put what she just said in writing to me suddenly the phone went dead? i wonder why?
    well i have now ended up £1400 in debt to my landlord,the council and my energy provider in total just through the unlawful activities of the csa. i had no option but to leave my low paid job but a job all the same and have a much better life on the dole. well i say better im better off finacially better off looking for work than actually doing 160 a month of hard graft. johnny two thumbs to you mr goverment agency bravo…
    oh just one other thing i wrote to my local mp and the priminister david cameron they both just past the buck on several time now
    sorry for the rant just see im not the only poor bastard that genuinly plays a active and finacial part of thier child/s life and just get raped by the buddy buddy system of govenment

  153. Andrew says:

    Which genius was it who disapplied limitation in the Child Support act?

  154. skintfather says:

    I have been paying my CSA and arrears for about 3 years.
    Whilst being unemployed for a while – they suspended my arrears and sent me letters stating i do not have any arrears.
    When i started working again, i was informed i hads £1700 of arrears.
    I dont mind paying them as i believe them to be correct (i refused to pay for 3 years, as my ex wife was in receipt of cash from me – innocently i thought that would be ok) – how ever i have issue with 30-40% of my wage being taken from me inorder to pay these arrears off. My last job i earnt over £28K and was left with just £1000 a month – now i am expected to live off £800 with paying all of my bills.
    I keep seeing this ICE mentioned – who are they please ??? (Just try googling ICE… amazingly its frozen water…….. LOL) – Because i do not see why i should pay this much to “Pay the arrears you owe as quickly as possible” which is incorrect because there is no debt and no money has been paid so there can be no debt……………
    I want to pay this at a “reasonable rate” which will allow me to actually be better off than on benefits.
    Can any one help ???

  155. Luke says:

    “I want to pay this at a “reasonable rate” which will allow me to actually be better off than on benefits.
    Can any one help ???”
    I really hope so ‘skintfather’ but I doubt it, the CSA are basically beyond the law and you signed the marriage certificate – they have you 🙁

  156. Name Witheld says:

    All these stories just amaze me – some similar to myself and others just like other stories I have heard. I have four different CSA departments dealing with my case, when pwc shouts money too low I am forced to pay over the top arrears – no investigation just whatever the pwc wants.
    I had 7 letters from June last year stating I owe £2120 in arrears, even though I was unemployed for 48 weeks over a four year period as well as living with my child and mother for two years of this period. The mother stated I did not live with her again no investigation just took her word over mine. In February this year I paid £2000 to my arrears, then the following month cleared my arrears with £120 on top of my normal monthly payments. I kept asking the CSA girl ‘now do I owe anything else’ again she stated ‘no’
    Today I received a letter stating I owe £500 to my ex. I am totally gobsmacked. Where do these people get their figures from? Why in this day and age with computers and technology can’t people read your file before sending demanding letters? However this does not matter to this dictatorship run by a sexist government.
    Why are my views claiming gender discrimination? Here us some. My ex claimed I did not pay her fir five years. I then got 5 years of child maintenance payments from my bank to prove I paid. After this arrears were dropped case closed, why? Why didn’t the CSA charge her with fraud? CSA answer that’s up to you. Again gobsmacked. If that was me the police would be round with a charge sheet quicker than Usian Bolt.
    Then discrimination with pwc’s word against mine. She gets what she wants as no one ever does an investigation to ask neighbours check bank statements domestic bills. I have all this on my side, however no one investigates. If this was anyone except a white male acts of discrimination would be raised and used to convict someone.
    I want to take these people to court and use media to highlight the discrimination fathers receive with this organisation. Please do not state that I am being a racist, as how can you judge a statement from a housing association saying to me ‘white male no chance’
    Everyone on this planet is equal, no one is better than the person next to them, some fathers do not give a damm regarding payments or kids just as mothers use children as weapons. There is fault on both sides.

    • SkintFather says:

      Unfortunately – You are the father and you are NOT the main care giver and yep they will just mess with you – thanks to Mr Blair his legacy to the world, people like us are just above drug dealers, and other petty criminals.
      But please don’t forget the CSA is a business EDITED.

  157. JamesB says:

    The CSA was the idea of Margaret Thatcher. It was put in by John Major with cross-party support and in the words of the ex Lib Dem leader Charles Kennedy was the worst mistake in politics he ever made. It was certainly legislation for which the country would have been better-off if it had not been made.

    • Luke says:

      Whether one approved or disapproved of Mrs Thatcher, I would suggest that it is difficult to try and blame her for the CSA in its current form now – especially as it is a quarter of a century ago that we are talking about.
      Charles Kennedy was quite possibly too drunk at the time to have a view on the matter – this is of course pure speculation on my part and I do not claim it to be validated by any evidence 🙂

      • JamesB says:

        I blame do blame the Conservatives for it, indeed the establishment. I do also think it has been bad for social mobility.

        • Luke says:

          Well sure, you can blame Thatcher if you want, but it’s not rational – since Thatcher we’ve had Conservative governments under different leaders, Labour governments – even a coalition government with the Lib Dems – nothing changes – except the name of the CSA and that their behaviour if anything gets worse.
          I think there are 3 reasons for this:
          (1) We have a feminist media that generally regards divorced fathers (as males are usually the target) as low priority.
          (2) We have a legal system made up of people who generally think the same.
          (3) We have a government that is swayed by the media and the legal system and also wants as much money from the CSA/CMA as cheaply as it can get it to avoid putting up taxes to cover the costs that would otherwise need to be serviced by the taxpayer. They can’t get the money from all of the fathers so they concentrate on the easier ones who cooperate and hammer them mercilessly.
          It’s a perfect storm and everybody is happy and everybody gets paid apart from the fathers obeying the rules who are often financially destroyed.
          Now I’m not suggesting this happens all the time, subject to contact rights I think the father must of course pay child support and this can sometimes work well – but if there is a real dispute and the CSA/CMA get involved there is real potential for injustice because the CSA/CMA is not interested in justice – it’s only interested in getting money.
          I hope I’m wrong but for some unfortunate fathers due to the convergence of interests mentioned above I don’t see anything changing any time soon 🙁

    • Marion Last says:

      Hell, yeah! Starve those children if their mother doesn’t want to carry on living with a violent, jailbird animal and wants to protect her children from him! Bitch doesn’t deserve to live and brats don’t matter!
      My ex-has served three prison sentences for violent assault on me, and was banned by the courts from contact with the children, due to his appalling neglect and abuse of them.
      He has recently decided to take early retirement from his position as a company director – and is now claiming benefits, having – as I know through mutual contacts – salted away a small fortune, after an affluent lifestyle while the children who he blubbed about (in between abusing them) have been brought up in poverty by me alone.
      He owes me £24,678.93, to be exact – after 23 years of the CSA drawing fat salaries and doing nothing to obtain this money. For fifteen years – while the children were very young – there was nothing. Finally, under threat of a jail sentence, he stumped up £20 per week… for three months. He went back to court and had this changed to £10 as he – I quote – “noticed the loss of £20 per week.”
      How tragic! He actually “noticed” paying some tiny contribution toward the upkeep of the children who – as previously said – he wandered around blubbering over, when not abusing them.
      The £10 per week payments continued for another three months until diddumkins could bear it no longer, and found that he wanted to buy a Rolls Royce instead.
      That was in 2008. I was told that the debt never went away – but in 23 years, I have received precisely £90!
      I have worked three jobs, and had to sell everything I owned, to keep the children and help to pay for their education… now the old toad tries to bother them and turns on the tap, pretending that he cares about them (they are old enough to be useful now.)
      A parent who does’t want to provide for his or her children is slime, lower than whale-sh*t. And the lawyers who support them in this attempt to wreck the lives of their children are a very special kind of evil.
      As for the CSA, they have been a waste of money – they have allowed thousands of people to enjoy comfortable lives and affluent retirements on state-incomes while doing nothing – literally, NOTHING.
      There is £3 BILLION in unpaid CSA arrears, owed to parents who have actually been parents, instead of selfish scum who resent supporting offspring who they value only by the hour of contact given – as if they were hiring a prostitute instead of enjoying the company of their child.
      I am currently forming a group of parents who are owed this money, with a view to holding responsible those who were paid to retrieve it, and failed.
      The intention is to take legal action against all those who handled cases over the years and failed to take actions which were legally permissible and reasonable at the time. The aim is full compensation – not only of the funds owed, but for the anxiety and suffering over the years, endured by the children whose lives were blighted by poverty, and by the parents who the CSA should have assisted.
      Please contact me via this, if you are interested in getting justice for the innocent and those who actually loved them.

      • JamesB says:

        Marion I will not talk about the assaults as you show no respect to all non resident fathers.
        re: as I know through mutual contacts – salted away a small fortune, after an affluent lifestyle
        I very much doubt that. Sounds like you are fighting with this man and he will be left with nothing and without his children also and if you win will be a hollow victory.
        I have heard at least three times in my life, probably more now with your post women assuming there is more money available as it suits them to believe that. I remember relative of mine who went on at her husband for years to spend more and when he died she and those around her expected to find savings and money, thing is there wasn’t as he spent everything he had on her and their family.
        It seems there is never enough money, for mothers especially when asking for money from non resident parents. I have this, the first demand after me and ex split was for 95% of my salary leaving me with nothing with is similar sounding to your post. Yours and others sense of entitlement like this is unpleasant, as is the way you speak about your children’s other parent and is probably upsetting for them.
        It is difficult and I have sympathy for you. Sometimes I think the juice isn’t worth the squeeze though and it sounds to me like you chasing him for £23k or whatever it was and is etc is not helping which is the case with csa / cmec / cms / cmoptions and would have been better left to the courts. I ask how would you feel if you chasing him led to him being dead? A rhetorical question. I hope things calm down for your family and get easier for all concerned, especially the children.

  158. Yvie says:

    It certainly is legislation which overall, would have been better if it had not been made. Families should work together to provide for their children without interference from the State. The majority of fathers are willing to support their children, but sometimes it has to be at a rate they can afford and not what they are obliged to pay by the CSA. In my son’s case, he has a shared residence of his children. The CSA take 25% of his weekly wages and after paying his bills there is very little left to provide for his children when they are residing with him. He has no social life of his own nor does he expect one for many years to come. He is one of the fortunate fathers as he has a shared residence of his boys, but something is wrong when 25% of a single father’s salary goes directly to a household where there are two people, both working full time. I have been retired for several years now, but I work from home most days, to ensure that my son and my grandchildren don’t go without essentials.
    There are some fathers who refuse to provide for their children, but realistically if a mother makes a bad choice of father to her children that is her responsibility, and the majority of decent hardworking fathers who do provide for their children should not be hounded by the CSA, especially when they are already providing for their children through a shared residence order.

  159. JamesB says:

    I agree that the CSA / CMO / CMEC / CMS isn’t good Yvie. I think it should be scrapped and the rules go back to how they were in 1990, i.e. before the CSA, which was a fairer situation and with less man-bashing.

  160. JamesB says:

    I think it also causes a lot of mental illness. By that I mean where a loving parent has a child or children of theirs taken away and they are expected to pay for being tortured like that when they have done nothing wrong.
    It is difficult for the nrp to not feel themselves a victim an disenfranchised from society. Added to that you take away their ability to start again or have another child which is a reasonable, natural feeling if you have a child taken from you.
    The csa / cmec / cms immoral approach of completely discounting conduct or circumstances at all is bad and further undermining people’s confidence in their representatives and government. It is not right to treat people in this way.

  161. JamesB says:

    Added to that, they miss their children and when faced with difficulty trying to see them have a court system which doesn’t care about enforcing contact orders.

  162. JamesB says:

    It really sucks being treated as a criminal by these people having done nothing wrong.

  163. JamesB says:

    I also think and agree sadly with the above point made by others that they cause a lot of suicides.

  164. JamesB says:

    They also encourage women to leave their parters and expect to be paid for it.

  165. JamesB says:

    It’s an absolute disgrace.

  166. Yvie says:

    Worst of all, child maintenance need not be spent directly on the children. My son pays 25% of his weekly wages to his ex, and it is particularly galling when he sees his children coming home from school in shoes with holes in the soles.

  167. NoLight says:

    I am sorry that things are still going on as they were over 20 years ago and that Fathers and Children are still suffering both through enforced seperation and all the other trauma that happens during such a system.
    Sad also for the genuine caring mothers that find things difficult in getting the support needed as well as the rare Fathers with custody getting the similar support.
    We as a country should be getting things better for Children after years of experience of what a draconian system of what happend during and after divorce or seperation of parents and the break up of the original family unit.
    My case is similar to many others here and in many respects an awful lot worse. And my mother last her granddaughter along with me losing contact with my daughter after 4 years of seeing each other from when she was aged 4.5 to aged 8.5 years old. Sadly as a 19 year old she was not interested in contacting her grandmother when she was dying. So grandparents are very much affected in the childs relationship and family unity. What society will we be in the future when tragedies happen and through the legislation and organisations in place actually end up being totally unfit for purpose and damaging Children.
    My case strated in 1992 and I had an attachment of earnings starting 1992 or 1993 until 1997 with my ex¿wife getting 700 pounds a month. The family home which I bought and during the short 5 year marraige was sold in 1999 as I had during the marraige put it into joint names. I was living in the former marital home when my ex went back to her first husband. When they divorced he was not to have any contact with his 2 children or even recive such things as school reports. I thought this was unreal. After the house was sold in London I could not keep working there because of the CSA level of attachment of earning. My ex moved around the country but always around 65 – 100 miles from London and I did not get any costs taken into account for seeing my daughter every 2 weeks. The CSA also did not take into account every time my ex went to her local court with allegations and I had to take holidays and costs in going to court to defend her allegations.
    During being in London and around 1997 I had a breakdown and was off work for 3 months on full salry so the CSA payments always continued. In 1999 I returned to Scotland after meeting a new partner but after 2 years that relationship ended for many reasons. It coincided with a drastic reduction of my mothers health and I went to live with her and look after her, She had carers coming in for 30 minutes morning and night but needed more. I went back and provided the care she needed.
    In 2004 the CSA part of the case ended when my daughter became 16 and left school. The CSA ignored my information on this but sometime later I received a letter saying that my ex-wife had now withdrawn her claim. . I received a letter of balance I owed each year abd it stated zero and then with this final letter I thought that was the end of it.
    Life has been difficult but eventually I found a wonderful woman and we have a great relationship.
    I could not get employment from 1999 through looking after mum until her death.
    There was a home visit by the CSA around 2003 and the guy at that time got the whole story of what happened and how my daughter was treated.
    So from 2004 until 2014 there has been no contact at all from the CSA. After so long I threw away all the correspondance history and paperwork of both the divorce and dealings with the CSA
    However recently I have received a letter from Child Maintenance alleging I am 4,000 in arrears and with a telephone number to contact. I am now on pension credit and have been for some time. My daughter will be 27 yearsold in a couple of months. My ex’wife has worked and I belive quite a few years ago married the business owner.
    I am distraght and have not got the same ‘fight’ in me to tackle the Child Maintenance people again and cannot even face contacting them. Since this letter arrived which was also dated wrongly as supposed to be being sent over 2 months ago, my partner is in tears and I fear that it will damage our present relationship. The letter also states they have contacted me previously which is a lie.
    I began looking for advice and what to do and where to go and there really seems nothing to do and nowhere to go. It looks like the remaining years of my life will be destroyed by my ex’wife and the CSA.
    Our daughters life and her grandparents lives destroyed along with the effects on my life.
    It has to end sometime..
    This blog is excellent in seeing that it is happening to many people all over the UK but also depressing as I was also looking for hope and realising that there is none.

  168. Yvie says:

    I am sorry to hear your story, notlight. I am not surprised that little has changed in twenty years and I doubt anything will change in the next twenty years. My own experience of the CSA (through my son’s case), is that they have no respect whatsoever for decent fathers who are more than willing to support their children. My son has a court ordered shared residence of his two children and provides a home for them with everything that a home entails. They have all the clothes they need as well as things to make their life enjoyable such as x-boxes etc . Despite this, the CSA have labelled him an absent father, and a non-conformer. My son has always supported his boys but has a dread at the back of his mind that he will never get out of their clutches.

  169. JamesB says:

    I like to think that there will be improvement in the next years. For example, I see the introduction of relationship classes at schools as a good positive step in the right direction. As is trying to get people to deal with this matter between them more and by default without big brother getting involved which is also a right principle to follow. Two positive steps, more are needed as I agree it has not been good. I do know men who have died following separation and I do think the csa / cmec / cms / government rigid rules approach to child maintenance is at least partly responsible for theirs and others deaths and also a lot of trouble that there needn’t be.

  170. NoLight says:

    Thanks Yvie and JamesB for your wishes. It is a hard time for all including the children. The first system as in all system is difficult to formulate but as we all would wish that it had developed a more humane approach in difficult family matters rather than the draconian form it as taken. Especially sad that the hoped for development has not taken place and indeed the law and regulation has taken on a harder inhuman role.
    JamesB, There is not the improvement that you mention. The mothers that truly care for the child have always been excellent on access and in negatiation. In my case we did attend two different mediation groups and one was ‘suggested’ by the judge. However my ex’wife had already been through a divorce with her first husband being refused any contact or indeed any information at all from anyone including any school contact or reports on teir two children. So I knew what to expect right from the start. And this is the person that she went back to with our child and then the inevitable further break up of that relationship.
    So even under the most stringent law women like my ex would always refuse mediation of any kind on anything.
    The welfare officer also had the personal opinion that if the mother did not want the child to have contact with the father ten indeed it was bad for such contact to take place.
    All fathers in her reports lost contact as far as I am aware and the County had similar leanings towards that guidance as a general approach for all welfare officers.
    Yes it is a tragic thing where loving fathers that are needed by the children have lost their lives in many different forms including the suicide option.
    I also had a sort of at least short breakdown after about 7 years of courts and the CSA.
    I hope that there is a more positive approach on human and loving attachments for te child takes place in te future. But while this is all based purely as a monetary collection by government then many aspects are bound to failwhich indeed damages the child but also te mother. Not least the deteriorating circumstance of a father able to work and earn effectively in the support.
    That there is no light from the government to look at or even accept a human approach despite in the past many studies and experts saying that this was essential in the approch to these issues.
    Yes there are very dark and painful days ahead and I fear that I will not be able to cope with this continuing and increased pressure and that my present fantastic relationship of 5 years will also be seriously damaged But this govermental approach is done wit known aims and objectives and there is twenty years of that experience.

  171. JamesB says:

    Its like the charges for the CSA / CMEC / CMS. They are in line with the lobbying power and how much the politicians side with the pwc female single parents.
    For those who don’t know, the charges are the pwc gets 4% collection fee taken off maintenance if it isn’t to be paid directly to her from her ex, whereas the nrp gets a whacking great 20% added to his already massive charge in the same instance.
    To spell it out politicians and judges and establishment do not care for or tend to represent nrp fathers at all well, and certainly do not pay as much attention to them as mothers. We must try and remain positive though. It is possible to choose not to be a victim and many people (increasing numbers, probably many millions) are outside of political representation. I wish you, and people like you and me all the best.

  172. JamesB says:

    Things will get better, we need to remain positive.

  173. JamesB says:

    The moral of the story has to be, … don’t have children until you are 110% that you will stay together with the other parent for at least 19 years to raise them and to keep the government from interfering in your life, or sign a pre nup tjat stops them from doing so by the parents demand which is valid in law. Both these ways would and will work and stop the issue.

  174. Andrew says:

    No, James. Making pre-nups binding as regards the adults is right, the sooner the better, with no formality except writing and no get-out clauses.
    But you can’t contract out of your obligations to the children whom you beget or bear, and the extent of those obligations must depend on your means throughout their minority.

    • JamesB says:

      Re : But you can’t contract out of your obligations
      Erm, what about the wedding vows, this trouble started when lawyers started disregarding them and opting out of them as being of value or obligations. You are trying to have it both ways.
      I just say if nothing is of value then let people write their own wedding vows, then people can take it or leave it. If they don’t like them then they don’t have to get married. Lawyers made the institution of marriage a business arrangement (I think was the right decision) so it needs to be tidied up for what it is. I know it is not like that currently, I am saying how it should be. I think have made this point more clear than the post above which you responded to and clearly enough now.

  175. JamesB says:

    In America I think it is like that. Katie Holmes walked out on Tom Cruise because their pre-nup wasn’t so generous for example, I think our laws should be fairer like theirs or the Scotish family law. Both of which allow pre-nups to be written however you like.

  176. JamesB says:

    What I want and am arguing for is Fairer family law for England and wales please, especially for the males, but for the males, females, and children also.

  177. JamesB says:

    As Forrest Gump would say, that’s what I have to say about that.

  178. JamesB says:

    Currently the family law in England and Wales isn’t very good at all, hence why fewer people get married and that is wrong and it (CSA and family law in England and Wales) is wrong.

  179. JamesB says:

    Very badly wrong.

  180. JamesB says:

    It is in desperate need of change.

  181. Yvie says:

    It doesn’t seem to matter to the CSA if the father is already providing for the children. Unless it fits the exact requirements of the CSA, it is discounted and considered as an ‘extra’. The word of the mother is accepted without question. My son had his children for 198 nights out of the 365 nights for one year. This was documented. It was not accepted by the CSA who used dates before my ex. dil actually put in her claim, in order to even it out 2/7 nights shared care. It went to Appeal and the Judge upheld the CSA’s decision. When my son challenged this the CSA said they had to abide with the decision made by the Judge. However, they had already made the decision award 2/7 for the period concerned, although I understand is it against their rules to use dates before the actual claim was made.

  182. Chris says:

    Csa caseworker calling me a liar!
    I’ve yet to talk to him at this point?! We’ve never met?
    This is just the beginning of bullying and harrasment iv endured by csa staff
    I have at least 15 counts of Maladministration by csa staff
    But they have put a DEO on me to arrest my wages even though i was paying DD until staff instructed me to cancel the DD
    I have so much evidence against CSA staff iv now been invited to an interview under cation by their investigations team!!
    They are bullys and no one gives a toss or stands up against them its a joke!
    Btw i pay my way for my children i take my son and step daughter shared care
    This case with the csa is for kids i havent seen in 12 years becuase the mother left and changed their birth certs !
    Now shes back but only wants my money
    Nothing else?! No contact
    Her husband is the kids father shes stated
    They dont need me – apart from my £300 a month for their 3 holidays a year while me and my children struggle to live
    And thats my fault?! The csa allow this to happen its a joke
    Becuase i stand up to them i get beaten down again and again
    I wont stop until the stop!!
    Listen to the evidence here NOTE The link has been removed -Editor.
    I also have more evidence of breaches of laws, equility acts, data protection there actions have broken the law yet no one does anything!

    • Matt says:

      Hi Chris
      I feel your pain, I have much evidence to support maladministration and breach of Human Rights, I am currently fighting this with all the avenues I can but fear it won’t get very far as I feel at present NRP’s are treated as scum.
      Wish you luck.

  183. philip says:

    If you don’t like the legislation behind the CSA/CMEC/CMS then lobby your MP for a change!
    The legislation is full of holes and loopholes which can be used by either party!
    You would not believe the abuse that members of staff at the Agency get when they are simply doing their job and implementing the legislation as provided by our wonderful members of parliament!

  184. JamesB says:

    Would the system be better before the 1991 Child Support Legislation upon which cmec, csa, cms is based? Yes, it would be better off how it was before, in court, on a case by case basis. That and the 1999 pension sharing act should be deleted as they have made a bad problem much worse.
    The thing is politicians don’t like non resident parents, and feminist lobbyists have a lot of power. Thus trying to advise a politician as a nrp is talking to a brick wall. What you can do is try and avoid the csa/cmec/cms if possible, some are so disgusted they even leave the country and I can understand their point of view. Its not good where politicians do not represent their public as is the case here.

  185. JamesB says:

    The thing is politicians don’t like non resident parents, and feminist lobbyists have a lot of power. Thus trying to advise a politician as a nrp is talking to a brick wall.
    Its the banging of head against a brick wall that is the problem. Doing that or giving up or adhering to the law is the choice. I think people are split about 50 50 between the last two of those three options which is sad as it is bad law and we deserve better. As I say best avoid csa/cmec/cms if at all possible.

  186. JamesB says:

    50 50, being half and half, 50% to 50%, etc. I do like to clarify whenever possible. Had enough of this subject, have done 10 years have 10 more to go though. Hopefully will not be such an issue for my children or our children’s generation or those that follow.

  187. JamesB says:

    Its got to get better. It is getting better (for e.g. politicians realising subject best avoided and left to the parents) and I think it will get better and be fairer and fair soon. Trying to stay positive. In the meanwhile a lot of people have been done wrong on this by politicians and the agency, the thing is we are partly to blame as it is possible to avoid them and sort it with the other parent. We non resident parents need to try and be positive faced with this and keep going rather than banging heads against brick walls. For me that involves trying to avoid these agencies as much as possible. I hope others will learn by my experiences and also that writing here will help me which is why I have written here.

  188. JamesB says:

    Its an inflammatory subject though and I am surprised the politicians got involved in 1991. I don’t think they thought it through, perhaps a bit like their expenses claims. Especially concerning in that the Conservatives and Thatcher were and are supposed to be about less Government interference messing up peoples lives.

  189. JamesB says:

    I need to go now as I say the subject sets me off its just so wrong poor people paying richer people money for no good reason other than it is the law, such broad brush bad law undermines the law and the establishment and should be changed in answer to phillip’s point, which set me off, I have tried my hardest and done what I could to change it and can do no more and also ask that others do and avoid it and undermine it whenever possible and I hope it is changed. I think this is my last post on here as I need to be more positive then this, I have done what I can, it is up to others now and I need to do other things.

  190. Yvie says:

    Some of the CSA staff have no respect for ‘non-resident parents’. They seem to think that paying-parents are all trying to avoid child maintenance
    . My son has a shared residence order for his children. Twice he has been through the family courts at quite a cost in order to achieve this. For the first year of separation my son had his children for over 50% of the time. Following on from that, it was as per the shared residence order 2.5 nights week l, 3.5 nights week 2. Despite this, the CSA still managed to call his an absent father and a non-complier.

  191. JamesB says:

    I did write to and meet with my MP on this subject on several occasions and it did not seem to help, I think in the end we reached an impasse, where we agreed to disagree, so kind of resent being advised to go to my MP on the subject as that doesn’t help. Personally I would not work for an organisation as morally bankrupt as the cmec/csa/cms it is an organisation I find abhorrent immoral and amoral, I would also find it very difficult if not impossible for friends or relatives of mine to work there.

  192. JamesB says:

    If I could I would take my last post back. (Can you delete it please?) I do not want to write so many people off and argue with so many people. It was probably a bit harsh. Although the csa/cmec/cms have a broad brush anti nrp approach, I do not want to sink to that level for any length of time really. To get back to the subject of this thread, we should have better approach for this matter with fairer laws probably put it back to how it was before the CSA with child maintenance at Judges discretion rather than blaming all Non Resident Parents as a rule and punitively taxing them and treating them badly as lower people, we are not.

  193. JamesB says:

    The thread by started by Sam Harman that I refer to above is on this web site and is something like has society and family law got it in for fathers and was posted on September 4.

  194. JamesB says:

    I wish everyone well, especially non resident parents who are being unfairly criticized and dealt with and miss their children and try to do their best for their children, which I believe is a more accurate representation of them then any other. That is not an argument for bleeding them dry, quite the contrary indeed, I believe children would be better with happier parents then the system discussed in this thread creates. I have gave some suggestions in the many posts above such as scrapping the child support act 1991 and putting back to the courts and relationship classes at school and parenting classes. I can’t go on about it anymore though as I am aiming to get a bit happier myself and have done what I can and I struggle to compartmentalise my anger for the system I need to reduce that and stop it consuming me and try and be happier although it is hard I need to try. Cheers.

  195. JamesB says:

    The conclusion I have come to is that the best way to fight this system is to ensure that your children do not have any dealings with this system by trying to ensure that they have children later and don’t end up being a PWC (parent with care) or NRP (non resident parent). I also think it right to do what you can to scrap the child support acts and put things back to how they were before 1991 with pre nups also being valid and the replacement of the Matrimonial Clauses Act (MCA) 1973 updated with a better more fair family law system on AR along the lines of what is in Scotland please. It is a disservice to politicians that they duck this and continue to push the bad laws we have. All due respect to Marilyn Stowe for resigning from the CSA. I have said all this a few times though and am repeating myself so need to leave it there for others to take up also hopefully so that perhaps we can please get decent laws on this matter in future instead. I don’t mean to sound glib or preaching, it just bugs me, like the way my ex said “It’ll be ok, you can move out and pay maintenance and I’ll live here with the kids.” I do think that people should not be state funded to leave their partners and their children’s other parents where there is no real (rather than UB family law made-up etc.) bad behaviour from the other parent or if indeed the bad behaviour is theirs. Before the last general election Politicians talked about ending the couple penalty but they haven’t, they don’t seem to talk about much or have much to say or credibility anymore since this bad law was put in. The Government Sponsoring parents to create single parent families and nrps with a broad brush no fault approach as this law does is wrong.
    It would be and would have been much better for my children if me and my ex had not had the CSA/CMEC/CMS I think we could have dealt with things better for the children and each other in court and that should be the way in which child support should be resolved in this country. Also, the number of married and English mothers would increase if we could scrap the CSA/CMEC/CMS please.

  196. Andrew says:

    James, prenups cannot bind the children. You cannot contract out of the liability of both parents for their minor children. Even a prenup might have to be postponed until the children are adult.

  197. Yvie says:

    The CSA as a service is an abomination, and does more harm than good with its interference between parents. The majority of parents are perfectly capable of coming to an arrangement between themselves, and would do so if the CSA had not produced a yardstick indicating how much one parent should pay the other. In preparation for the imminent change over my son had text his ex on a couple of occasions asking if they could set up an arrangement between themselves regarding maintenance without involving the CSA, but had had no response. Eventually he received a text to tell him not to harass her any further. Had there been no CSA in the background I feel sure financial arrangements would have been agreed to fairly promptly. As it is, there is now no communication between the parents, change overs with the children are once again from my house, and the children are in the middle of it, more aware now of conflict because they are that much older. So much for the claim that they are ‘putting children first’. Not from where I am standing they aren’t.

  198. Lone Mum to One says:

    So very sick and tired of hearing about poor absent fathers!
    What about mothers like myself who are doing our very best to raise children in dire poverty – poverty which is a direct consequence of fathers walking out on us after the birth of our children and then refusing to financially support their children?
    I have spent three years fighting for money through the CSA/CMS and my child’s wealthy ‘doctor’ father has used every single trick in the book to avoid payment…including harassment, death threats, lies to the police, leaving the UK then returning, claiming he is not the father, absolutely every trick in order to force me to drop my claim. I have not. Despite, his wealth, the CMS are bloody useless and we are still sat here without receiving a penny in maintenance.
    It is not the human rights of the absent parent that is the issue here. It is the human rights of the child/children who are always forgotten.
    As usual, however, no one cares about children who cannot represent themselves or shout loud enough to be heard about the poverty they are living in due to their absent parent not providing financial support.
    I am more than happy for the CMS to have bailiffs knocking on doors of those parents who refuse to pay and more than happy for them to be imprisoned. That is nothing in contrast to raising a child in poverty.

  199. barry says:

    Hi all have to say first i am an nrp and have no problem in paying for my son whom i haven’t seen in 8 years because of his mother and her lies but i also have issues so mum’s take note i am happy to pay and think nrp’s should absolutely no question. Now the thing is many of us dad’s pay over the odds and get lies, bs and no contact, and to put it simply my point’s would be take a percentage of basic pay but not overtime, first it is not guaranteed and sometimes you get none then pay over the odds besides every penny over your basic allowance gets taxed plus national ins at a combined 32%, then at least 15% to csa means i pay 47%. Wow wayne rooney earns 300,000 grand a week yet pays 45% to government , and that’s if he doesn’t use the legal tax avoidance loopholes the government leave open for the rich, second it should be means tested so a parent with care gets more if low income but like my ex boasting to me that her and her partner earning so much they are buying a bigger house in an expensive town and several holiday’s a year and take my son to champion’s league football games abroad, er wish i was sruggling in the same way, then they should get a bit less and also a reduction if not allowing contact. Think about it so many pwc would suddenly allow, scrap that actually encourage contact, lets make it fair on all parties. Anyone thinking about going to european court lets get a big group and split cost’s or maybe find a lawyer that is maybe an nrp might do it pro bono, also start a petition and if we get enough signatures the government have to start a conversation on it, i think it’s over 100,000, or a peacefull demo and hand a petiton to 10 downing street. Just some thought’s

  200. barry says:

    as per above comment i am happy to swap details with interested parties, maybe we could start an nrp group and get a social thing going, after all we all have something in common

  201. Name Witheld says:

    My brother pays maintenance and has done since him and partner split up. he used to pay her direct but when he refused to up the money she denied him access to his son and contact the CSA. The CSA actually reduced the money he was already paying telling him he was paying to much . she again denied access. My brother then spent a fortune to get access and judge ordered him regular access.
    The problem i have is my brother is a good guy who fell for the wrong girl. she has no interest in her son other than to use him like a pawn in a game. she actually would say to my brother on the phone i have you right where i want you. My brother would collect his son and she would put him out in clothes stinking of smoke and were to small for him.and no jacket. (this is not because she couldnt afford it she actually wears designer labels herself) she also put him away for a weeks holiday with my brother (which she texted his the night before he left she had changed her mind and he could go) in a pair of shorts and a t shirt and trainers that were to small and that was it!!! not a bag, not a jumper nothing!!! lucky my brother had packed a case. so my brother buys him clothes all the time. and his son has a whole wardrobe of clothes at his house but he now stops putting them back to his mothers with him as they would go ‘missing’. my point is why are these things not taken into account, my brother is a good dad, he would have his son full time if he was allowed. On a recent visit to citizen advice he was told “just do what she says” “try and keep her happy” “you have no right because you werent married” It drives me crazy especially when my nephew is in tears because its time to go home to mums!! Its not always the case of dead beat dad a term which i hear regularly. The Dads should have equal rights each case should be individually looked.

  202. Darren Gough says:

    I got divorced in 2007 and since re married, My Ex wife said she didn’t love me anymore and I had to go. I stayed in the house for a few months and eventually got her to pay me some money from the house. We have 3 children and I have always paid my way through the CSA. 3 Years ago I fell ill and had to have a heart bypass and since then my health hasn’t been the best and i have had to give up my day job. My new wife got diagnosed with cancer in January and is still in hospital. The CSA have rang me today to confirm that I am no longer working but i do sing at weekends? I told them I don’t earn from it but I feel they may come after me now? I have still been giving my ex wife bits of money here and there when I can and I always get pocket money to the kids. I am also going to get carers allowance to look after my sick wife and she will be on independence benefit when she gets out of hospital. If I could ask advice? Should I stop going out singing at the weekend persuing my hobby?

  203. Richard says:

    My csa payments of £467 a month has just been suspended to my ex wife at last , although I notified the csa august 20th 2014 that my son started full time employment with my sister company,almost a year later it is only now I’m finding out that my ex failed to declare to the csa and put a new claim in for payments instead ,they totally ignored my constant calls to them asking why I’m still paying saying to me each time my ex is entitled to the payments , this became very frustrating at the time and all I can say is that the csa is a corrupt orginasation working for the government , I’m still waiting for almost £3000 in overpayments back and now the csa say they cannot contact my ex as phone calls go unanswered and mail gets returned to the csa saying this person doesn’t live here no more , iv paid up without nonsense for 4 years and this is the way I get treated this orginasation is totally corrupt and only there for the women , they even said on the phone that my ex although the payments been suspended she is legally still allowed to have the payments lol, they could not answer my ? Well why isn’t she shouting and screaming down the phone for this much needed money then , the sale of my batman suit is soon fingers crossed , long term payment become part of ex s incomes and it’s very true they will try everything possible to hang on to it including encouraging their kids to stay in further education rather than taking on full time jobs with the same career prospects , I have been lucky my ordeal Is nearly over I just hope the justice system does it’s job now and prosecutes my ex for trying to defraud myself the government and tax payers .

  204. Yvie says:

    Prosecuting mothers who are benefit cheats is not a priority for Governments. In fact, the rules of the CSA were changed in April 2010 to allow mothers who were claiming benefit to get the full child maintenance payment instead of just the £20 disbursement. Apparently this was put in place to ‘stop mothers cheating the system’. In addition, Government would prefer to impress upon the general public that separated fathers are ‘deadbeat dads’ or ‘non-compliers’. Whilst there are some fathers who refuse to face their responsibilities, most fathers are more than willing to support their children, but feel account should be taken of the circumstances of both the mother and the father when calculating child maintenance payments. The Labour Party were apparently set to review the new CMO system if they managed to get into power. More than likely they would have dispensed with charges for mothers, but left in place charges for fathers, possibly even increasing them. So we should be thankful for small mercies.

  205. living with cms says:

    Im a mother of 6 …. 4 i have with previous partners i have never asked my exs for child maintance through csa or cms … we have an arrangement which suits us, i understand they have new partners and unlike most exs i respect that. My partner whom i have 2 girls with on the other hand has 2 dependance with his ex partner and for 3 years she has been nothing but a nightmare since me and my partner has got together, she cheated on him shacked up with his best friend (which is vile human being and in the past threated to turn up at my house and sort me out ) 6 months b4 i even met my current partner, my partner was forced out of work as he was working with her father and we had no end of grief he used to have his kids every other weekend but she put a stop to that because it wasnt enough for her had to be every week or nothing so we got a solictor involved, on jsa and nothing to spare with 5 kids and a house yo provide for we still found 400 to get letters sent out, more lies came she sent friends up to where i was volunteering stay and play rep, long story short i was threaten and worse put on anti depressants for aniexty caused by her and her friends (we lived in a small town). After he paid all there joint bills off and trainers clothes etc and having the kids everyweekend without my presence as she request..We finally made the courage to move somewhere new and guess the lovely ex rang up cms told them we were earning 700 a week, i was claiming as a single mother and gave them 3 different address s to them for him i finally get a letter asking for £100 a week to her and they ve have took it out my money a week already we just struggled to pay our rent cos the amount of children we have means we have to pay full rent no help from housing benefit and they believed her without any investigation, none of what she has told them is true and she told us we had to go to court if we want access to the kids and now some how they have found out our new address and will show up if i voice my opinon , the doctor has put me on double the dose of antidepressants and my partner has a new job i start work next week part time but we will never be free of his exs manipulation. She tried to say we didnt need to go to court we kept the messages . only thing we have going for us, after reading all this messages ive lost hope 🙁

  206. Andy says:

    So..I read all the bleeting about the PWC having no money for the children..
    she can earn as much as she likes and still claim benefits then CMS add contributiond from the NRP.
    and you lot bleet about it…
    CMS are like any ageny..never wrong and if proven wrong totalky deny it..then god help any one who challenges short Fathers are all treared likecriminals from allwalks of life..
    such a caring CMS agency..and you never get the same answer to a simple question the same..

  207. Warren says:

    I have been financially supporting my son from 6 months old he is now 8. Covering additional cost without a blink of an eye. Having him every weekend. Paying over the odds. Me and my family supporting her if she needed help… Nothing I wouldn’t of done for my son. But some women become bitter. Advising I’m inconsistent so She stop contact. So I stopped the money with a simple request to reinstate contact and the money will resume… She contacted CMS and has been like poison in my life. Had to go mediation which she voided. And CMS has threatened me with large bills, taken money out of my wages (even though I’m paying her) continuous contridicting information send through the post but this agency has so much power it’s unreal. The police can’t even go in your wages but this organisation can. It amazes me to know criminals get better treatment then fathers do and to be honest I’m grow tired. Especially when the child thoughts and feeling are not taken into consideration. This agency needs to be stripped back and each policy addressed…. All agents trained to deal with the situation and a script to be created…I cant understand what is so difficult. All I know know once again man is put out to with the rubbish while the women sit in the warm…… The woman that should use CMS don’t and the woman that shouldn’t do…. The world we live in….

  208. withheld says:

    This agency is usless. My eldest child has socializing issues and Social Services and doctors state he needs contact with me to help him deal with his issues.
    My Ex goes to CMA and without warning or contact they take money from my salary.
    This leave me unable to even pay my rent let alone the travel to get to see him
    CMA are told after I made contact with them. They admitted they were writing to an incorrect address, but don’t care, and don’t listen.
    Result. I can not now see my 10 year old child, It costs £17.40 every time I go to see him in travel, so his mum is now phoning the police when he get angry and threatening him with arrest!!!!!.
    The CMA seem to think they know better than professionally trained and qualified organisations. and they state they are there for the welfare of the children!!!! says it all

  209. Yvie says:

    They are obliged to adhere to legislation as laid down by the government. They are a money collecting service, no more, no less. They like to claim that they put the needs of children first, but due to rigid legislation this is impossible to do as they are unable to take individual circumstances into account.

  210. Name Witheld says:

    Csa is a load of nonsense and was put there by labour a party I supported for so long.I no longer vote to hell with all of the first instance I pay 456 a month for my 2 children I have difficulty seeing them due to the mothers spiteful nature and nasty attitude.she does not even get half of this money as a result I only take home half my wages and struggle to make ends for this so called arrears what a load of bollocks I’m a hard working honest man and I am made to look criminal because the government want to fill their coffers for their can I possibly owe such sums when I’ve been paying income tax for so many years which funds the benefit system.the whole system is illegal and in breach of an individuals human rights.

  211. Geoffrey Taylor says:

    I have suffered so badly with the CSA, having got Child Support Solutions and my last MP James Plaskit involved in my case, paid what I could afford for years, then out of the blue I’m turned down for a re-mortgage, why? because I’ve had a CCJ served on me, no not me at my new address which CSA new of, but at my old address, demand immediate payment of £9,000 arrears or jail, oh by the way, Sir you can pay us by credit card!, so now begins an arrangement to pay back arrears £112 per month, 4 years down the road, I’m summonsed to court for £12,000 but wait a minute, my statement from you says I owe you £3,600, I deny I owe you that figure, so I defend myself in court, it is adjourned and the judge suggests myself and the CSA woman communicate before next hearing, but I try to speak with woman over a number of days but she is never available!
    Returned to court, I again defend myself the CSA tells judge I was migrated over to new system and a glitch on computers meant it was not picked up till recently that they got their figures wrong!

  212. JamesB says:

    UKIP are the only party with a different policy in this area. The rest of them its like talking to a brick wall, they will talk about the things they want to but not the things like this that you want to.
    The 20 and 4 liability shows how poorly the government legislate in this matter, completely unfairly and unbalanced in favour of the woman pwc.

  213. M says:

    My partner was approached by CMA in march 2014.Since then our life was a hell as my Partner denied paternity.
    CMA, never ever send anything in writing to assess his financial obligations, they just simply decided to attached an order from deduction even with wrong details.
    My partner obtained a DNA test, and he was informed that his ex-wife did not go for it, yet he has to pay due to the fact he was named on the birth certificate.He has made a request in writing to receive under Data protection Act all the information about the case, still nothing arrived in the post.
    Due to the CMA abusive and intrusive behaviour I have given birth prematurely to my child and suffered from post natal depression.
    They only care about payments , regardless of the circumstances of the NRP.
    Therefore I have decided to sue them for infliction of emotional distress, I can prove how they messed up my family life.Please leave an message if you also has suffered from severe emotional distress and can prove (I have been on antidepressants for months) as a mass legal action might correct their wrongful behaviour

  214. Yvie says:

    This organisation seems to be able to wriggle out of everything and have no blame attached to it. I would imagine that contacting your MP would be a useful starting point. There is an official complaints procedure but it is very long winded and has to be followed explicitly.. NACSA website should provide helpful information about how to go about this.

    • Maria says:

      My partner has been trough the complaints procedure.Every single letter was left with no reply.
      They should dissolve the institution and go like any other UE state , via courts to establish child maintenance.
      It saves everyone time and money and correct decision can be made by qualified people, not by someone that barely holds an A level degree.
      This why I decide to sue…a mass action from third parties that have suffered from their incompetence might help the government to reconsider the existence of this so called unbiased service.

  215. Extremely fed up says:

    How does this work when the ex partner has always had substantially more income than the dad and csa don’t take this into account when chasing him for money that we can’t afford and the children that we have together have had to suffer,not a holiday in years were as the other parent lives in a four bed detached has holidays designer clothes ect, but quite frankly doesn’t manage her money properly,and we have now been landed with another bill of 3 grand just when we thought it was done, both kids are 20 and 18 and one is working an apprenticeship,also just found out one of the daughters didn’t live with the mother for two years and they are saying as she has turned 20 the case is closed now and they won’t budge, just boils my blood

  216. tony says:

    can article 6 be used in a case of a deductions from earnings order? my ex has stopped me from seeing my son for 14 years. now the cms are taking £500 a month direct from my wages with out any opportunity to put my side of the case. this is grossly unfair. also there is the breaches of data protection law ( schedule 2) data my not be used or processed with out the data subjects consent

  217. Nick says:

    Suicide is number one killer of men in the UK. The majority have a case children separated from them with financial difficulties – do the math.
    CSA is evil, the politicians who refuse to review it are evil, Family Courts are useless and seemingly do what they like without the same scrutiny as the absent parent.
    Parents who make babies for profit are a result of a poor government which equals the parents low moral fibre.
    If I knew being British meant I can never see my kids again – I would have defected prior to becoming a parent.

  218. Paul says:

    The whole concept of child support is out of date. Neuclear families where the father supports the family dont exist.
    Both parents must be working to pay a mortgauge or even rent just to get by.
    What about low income families ?
    A father on minimum wage with a -20% CSA payment is losing 37.5% of his income before he pays rent or a mortgauge. Thats CSA+Tax&NI. Not including pention or other contributions.
    Its in human. We would not do that to a dog.
    It has been universally accepted that a normal adult cant live on minimum wage anyway. Thats why we now have an accepted ‘Living wage’ (thanks to the institute of fiscal studies)
    This means that an ‘Alienated’ father is not only ‘existing’ I wont say living on 37% less than the state minimum. He is pretty much living at least 40% bellow the acceptible living standard.
    Thats before bills.
    Anyone understand the male suicide rate yet ?
    A mother and father both on minimum wage or low wages cant afford to support a child. Thats why child benefit was introduced.
    Child benefit is the childs wage.
    People are means tested to be on the minimum amount needed for one person to survive.
    The CSA system is inhuman because it makes no allouance for low income people or the accepted minimum living standard.
    Also the CSA take NO ACTION against self employed people. Only soft targets on the PAYE system. Deduction of earnings DOE should never be deployed without a fair hearing first.

  219. lee says:

    I am a single father that have two children that I pay for when the new cms come into force this changed everything I have worked most of my life due to my illness I only work part time I earn £600 per month and they wont me to pay £95 for the eldest and 27 per week as they say I earn 312 per week as the hmrc told them I earn 1600 per year this is from 2 years ago as they told me on the phone I have sent them 8 wage slip from my new employer and they wont except them even tho they have got my new employers details as everytime I phone them I have to tell my details I really don’t understand where to go from here

    • Paul says:

      They’ve done exactly the same to me Lee. Done a calculation based on last tax return. You need to contact you MP as soon as you can. I have sent them wage slips too. An they have completely ignored them.
      I offered on the phone to put a standing order in place. They would not do it. At this rate im going to be sleeping on the streets. Have a witness everytime you contact them. I go to the Citzens advice. Do not let them call you without having a witness present. You have a right to privacy and are not obligated to give details over the phone tell them you want all communication in writing. If they ignore it just say im sorry I dont give out personal details on the phone. Write to your MP and explain they have ignored your request. They are inhuman.
      Im in the same situation. £600 for 20 hours. Employers dont give you more than 20 hour contracts now. An these vampires want £64.00 a WEEK. Im not sure doing GCSE maths is a requirement to join the DWP these days. Looks like ill be living on the street soon.

  220. Yvie says:

    This agency has been granted far too many powers. The action it takes against fathers who are paying for their children is quite despicable. Fathers who pay their way are taxpayers too, and as such deserve consideration and respect from this organisation. Government gives child benefit to mothers at the rate of £20 for the first child and £13.50 for the second child. It is a pity that child support was not set at this basic level in all cases and that government agencies had the right only to demand this same amount from fathers. There will be fathers who can afford more and will want to give more, but they should be allowed to give extra child support on a voluntary basis, maybe directly to the mother or perhaps buying shoes, school uniform or paying for a school holiday. This could also have the advantage of parents actually communicating with each other and discussing their finances instead of one parent demanding what she owed, and the CSA ensuring that she gets it whatever the consequences to the paying parent. There must surely be a better way of funding joint responsibilities than the interfering busy body legislation that is not fair and not fit for purpose .

  221. Marion says:

    My Granddaughter is 6 Today, Haven’t seen her for 2 years neither has my Son the Father.
    All we want to do is care love and look after her, not permantly but at weekends. We are not here to disrupt her life. You wouldn’t believe the pain we go through the grief and the emotional stress.
    She was in our lives for 4 years then suddenly just taken away.
    Can anyone relate ? My Son is heart broken and I wonder if he would do something daft one day !

    • Cameron Paterson says:

      Hello – sounds rough. You may find this article helpful:

      • Marion says:

        Thank you I did read that earlier. What to do is another matter wait till they are old enough to make that decision I think too much negativity had been passed to them about us. Makes me so sad may not be here when then they do want to contact. (and yes I have the same with both Granddaughters)

    • Paul says:

      My parents absolutly can relate. They have not seen their Grand kids in 3 years.
      They know that I did nothing wrong towards my kids. They know there is no justification for my ex stopping contact.

      • Marion says:

        Hi Paul thanks for answering and feel your pain. My son is a wreck with it all. All he wants to do is love them

        • Paul says:

          No problem Marrion. My heart bleeds for anyone entering this system. Its appauling. I am really sorry Marrion,
          I wish I could say this will get better, but it won’t im affraid. Your son is in for a very rough ride. You will need to be their for him.
          What ive experienced will haunt me forever. It has destroyed me. The system is institutionally sexist. Your son will not receive fair hearing.
          Wish I could offer you advice. But I can’t.
          I would ask you to look at the big picture if you can. The situation is no differnt than a hostage situation. If you pay for legal advice the odds are still not in your sons favour and you will have effectively paid the ransom. An of course your son will have crippling debts.
          As long as people pay for legal advice it will carry on for other people. Its a business model to support family law solicitors. The love your son has means nothing to these people. This is a business transaction.
          Sorry I can’t be more possative. Be their for your son.
          Good luck.

          • Cameron Paterson says:

            Of course, legal costs are an issue for many people and that is why John, for example, has written so much about the severe cuts to legal aid introduced in 2013. But legal representation – if you can afford it – will make a difference to your case.
            Personally, I think the attitudes sometimes displayed in the family courts to the roles of mothers and fathers in a child’s life directly reflect the attitudes to gender of society at large.

          • Yvie says:

            In general it is mothers who benefit most from legal aid, as the bar for obtaining it is set very low and most fathers have a job which would disqualify them from legal aid. Thus mothers with no costs to worry about are encouraged by the State to prolong the agony of child issues in the Family Courts. Many dads give up at the stage through lack of funds, other continue and suffer the burden of debt for many years. It should be legal aid for both parties only, otherwise legal aid for none.

          • Cameron Paterson says:

            I agree Yvie. If legal aid had not been slashed, fathers would be entitled to it as well

          • Yvie says:

            And how many fathers would qualify Cameron – even the most basic paid jobs would be over the qualifying criteria.

          • Stitchedup says:

            No Cameron, not of they were just one penny over the income threshold, that’s what wad wrong with legal aid. One party could bleed the other dry.

  222. Paul says:

    I have raised concerns with my MP reguarding two months where the child support agency have taken an accessive amount of money from my wages.
    She has established for herself that the CMS are supposed to leave you with at least 60% of your wages. I have provided her with the wage slips and evidence that they have not done that. I have been exchanging letters for quite some time with my MP but she seems reluctant to accept that they could be at fault and is now trying to deflect my issues elsewhere.( ICE independant case examiner. ) ICE have no capacity to hold the CSA to account for their actions. I have been down that road before.
    If they are independant im chinese.
    Why did she not do that before I gave her concrete evidence the CMS are inhumae bxxtards clearly breaching my human rights?
    My MP has been good enough to respond to my letters but regards taking any action when they are clearly in the wrong she seems very reluctant to do anything.
    She is a female Labour MP no doubt with strong femanist values. I’m sure this has no bearing on the way my complaints are been managed.
    Its utterly infuriating. Any issues men aish to raise in parliment are derauled or vetoed by femanists.
    Sadly I feel like I may have to raise a parlimentary complaint to that effect.

  223. Paul says:

    The CMS are also trying to charge me for using their appauling service. Despite the fact they continually screw my case up. They have screwed up my case 3 times so ive been on 3 differnt schemes. At one point they screwed it up so badly they had to sweep it under the carpet completly. They lovingly refer to this as ‘Doing a falkirk’ refering to a particularly incompetant DWP site in Scotland which consistantly did this to people.
    I worked in a DWP site. I heard this straight from the horses mouth.
    They put me on their new bright spark scheme on which it is my responsability to phone my expartner and come to an amicable arrangement with my ex.
    I explained to them that was not possible because of a false allegation of harassment i would be in breach of the law to get in contact with my ex. So they now have to treat me as someone who is unwilling to come to an arrangement and I have to pay for their pay and collect service . Get your head round that. A 20% charge ontop of the rediculous calculation they already gave me and it would go nowhere near my kids.
    I raised this issue with my MP also. I made it clear that I have not in anyway been given a fair opertunity to pay direct to my expartner because doing so I would have been in breach of the law.
    I have not got a satisfactory answer to this enquiry yet.
    If they have not given me a fair opertunity to avoid these charges then that is simply exploitation or stealth taxation is it not ?
    If they give me a fair assessment i am happy to pay for my kids.
    BUT I will go to jail if they try to force me to pay a penny to those idiots for their abysmal service.

  224. Paul says:

    I called them directly from the CAB with an independant witness from the CAB and my partner with me.
    I will only communocate with them with an independant witness. I recomend everyone does this.(Because they will lie directly too you. They will threaten you without justification and they will rob you.)
    I offered to come to a direct arrangement with them to pay by standing order.
    I asked them to send me an accurate calculation and the bank details I need to set up a standing order.
    They completely ignored this and took direct enforcement action putting a DOE order on my wages.
    A DOE which obviously completely decimated my wages. Leaving them bellow the 60% they are supposed to leave you with.
    They knew EXACTLY what my wage was because I supplied them with 5 monthly wage slips (as they had requested) TWICE
    faxed with witnesses from the CAB.
    This organisation is INHUMAN and opperate with a complete disreguard for human rights. They have killed people by doing what they do. God knows how many they have left in poverty or with mental health problems.
    They are breaching human rights regularly this is a fact if anyone wants the evidence to be presented in court. Please contact me. I will gladly attend.
    Please take my advice and spare yourself any future aggrivation.
    A verbal agreement is not worth the paper its written on. They will lie and deny any conversation took place.
    You have been warned.

  225. Anon says:

    This child maintenance idea seems is like if someone has their car stolen expecting them to pay rent to the person who stole it to drive it around afterwards. Its dodgy and smelly and unnatural and the government didn’t really think it through and is pushing luck as is also encouraging (subsidising) this (bad) rise in faithlessness. A better approach to separation would perhaps be for the government to have hostels for women and children instead of expecting their ex’s (who do not live with them) to continue to support them, which is pushing it really.

  226. Tony says:

    Hey, Folks. I am new here but am losing the will to live. This may be a long post as I think it is important for you to know how I got here.
    In 2008 I went to a party, hardly drank and decided to sleep on the sofa, Woke up the next morning and went home. a few hours later 2 women appeared at my door and one of them demanding a relationship. This lady was deaf, Apparently, I had slept with her the night before. Now I have never been so drunk that I couldn’t remember what I had done. But this night I was positive that this had not happened as I was hardly tipsy.
    Of course, I sent them packing. weeks went on they kept coming back to the house to the point where I had moved, after this I received a call from a friend to say they had told the women where I worked due to them nagging them. Later the woman and her mother turns up to my work and caused a massive scene and smashed all the dishes in the canteen, Needless to say, the boss wasn’t happy. This went on for a while and I had to get the police to give her two warnings, I nearly lost my job over them coming to my place of work.
    I moved yet again and was transferred to work. Around 12 months later I get a letter from the CSA claiming maintenance for a child with this woman, Of course, I argued the case and agreed to a DNA test. This test came back positive and I was completely gobsmacked and gutted at the same time. By the time the DNA test was confirmed I was 1600 in areas with the CSA, my weekly payment was calculated and an additional amount added totalling 31,50 per week as I was on the relatively low money at the time.
    For 6 years I paid the payments on the 15th of the month to the CSA directly which would have more than covered the areas. Then 18 months ago I get contacted by the new CMS and told they now had my account and I had to pay the woman direct. I want to add I have no contact with this child due to the troubles above and the issues she has caused in my relationships since.
    The CMS sent me a letter with the weekly amount on it I took this figure x it by 52 and divided it by 12 to get my monthly amount and started paying on the 15th of the month direct into her account from my own bank account via a standing order. A few weeks later I get another letter saying I’m 1800 in areas and this was passed onto them from the CSA, I argued this was paid and they said I had to contact the CSA. I spent 8 hrs on the phone trying to speak with someone eventually getting to the right department after being cut off time and time again. I asked for a complete breakdown of my account and was told it would take 28 days in which to arrive. Needless to say, this did not come. Again another 7 or 8 hours trying to get hold of the right person again to be told the same thing. I have done this on 4 occasions.
    Back in September of last year the CMS write and tell me that due to me not paying the woman they are now handling my account, I sent in all my bank statements proving I had paid but they have not acted upon this. I must point out here that this woman has tried lying to them telling them I have not paid on many occasions and despite proving it I am the one who is constantly harassed. They do not give her any trouble for lying.
    So last September I look back at my statement to see the payment went to her account only for her bank to return it and this was the missed payment. I tell the CMS that I am not giving the 20% to pay for them and will continue to pay directly to this woman. I have done since that date. So by this point, I have no areas.
    However, I get home tonight to find a new breakdown for next year stating how much weekly I have to pay, only now the areas are just under 3,000 pounds and I owe the CMS 443 for unpaid fees for payments they have never dealt with.
    This woman has had her money for the past 8 years on the 15th of the month without fail, apart from that September when her bank returned it and somehow I am 3,500 in debt. They now want to take 107 off me weekly for the areas I don’t owe and charge me nearly 800 for the year to do it. This is causing me so much stress It is breaking down my current relationship due to the stress of it all. I am already overdrawn each month 2 days after being paid. I have a daughter with an x wife who also gets her maintenance direct without CMS and has never had an issue and 2 children at home. we are always struggling to pay things due to the amount I am paying, and the CMS will not see they are in the wrong despite the bank statements proving I have paid.

  227. margaret says:

    I would have liked to be able to print off these pages but cannot see how::
    There does not seem to be any point in a family member going to court to see his children, Has been accused of abuse, not a shred of proof. In all other areas of the law there has to be proof.
    His wife has never had to work and has been kept by him for the last 20 years. she did look after the children and do a bit of cooking, not for him very often. he did everything else.
    Now looks as though she can take the 1.2 million house and most of the rest of what he has. he will be left homeless and I think unable to work due to the mental health problems caused by having to live with a very dominant wife all these years.
    That seems to be what passess for justice in this country, it is beyond belief/

    • Julian says:

      Bottom line is – Family Law is (with the exception of the glorious fee charging practitioners) entirely bankrupt.
      After 15 years living under its auspices, I am quite confident Family Law is a wholly abusive system that channels its widespread failings, chauvinistic assumption and stereotyping and complete inadequacy in resolving the issues caused by the abusive Mothers (in 95% of cases), it so enthusiastically enables.
      The problems lies across law, social workers and most definitely the psychology profession – I struggle to attach the word profession when thinking of the psychologists I have encountered – Robbing bastard thieves would be a more apt description of them.
      All the assumptions and golden pillars of Family Law need taking apart and reexamining to make them fit for contemporary times. If women want (and largely have) equality in the workplace, we’d like it at home too please. #metoo 🙂
      (*Comment moderated)

  228. Karen says:

    CHILD BENEFIT AND THE PAYMENT OF CHILD MAINTENANCE ARE NOT LINKED and until all NRP make a stand on this we won’t change CMS and their ruthless enforcement based on this falseless fact. My husband NRP has just lost a FTT. His daughter was studying a course of mainly level 4 qualifications with just a couple of level 3. The PWC supplied a letter to CHB and CMS from the small family run College (35 full-time students) only stating that the daughter was on a full-time (35 hours a week) of non-advanced study. My husband (NRP) instructed a solicitor who eventually obtained a full detailed report of all the modules and qualifications being studied which based on the GOV.UK website added up to over 26 hours a week over two years of level 4 study. This information has been ignored by CHB and FTT. CHB did not clarify what the course was or the qualifications being studied – in fact when pushed to investigate CHB asked for no further evidence and only spoke to PWC who confirmed to them it was actually a level 2 course!! The FTT Judge took this as CHB been LAWFULLY paid. my husband will now appeal to the UT but I don’t hold out much hope!! One point that did come out in the Statement of Reasons from the FTT was that CHB and child maintenance are not linked in law – yet continually CMS use the payment of CHB to prove Child Maintenance liability. In fact the Judge stated that when the daughter left College in July no child maintenance liability was due, yet CMS are chasing my husband for the payment of 7 weeks maintenance, even though nearly 2 weeks of that his daughter was working in Japan!! 7 weerks maintenance may not sound alot but as my husband is a higher rate tax payer it is some £1500. I realise this will not gain sympathy but we have moved around the country to further his career and our 13 year old son has had to change schools a number of times. This level of salary would not have been achieved without the various relocations. My husband also signed over the family home in his words to “protect his daughters future” so when i met him all he had was his salary less maintenance. Including the house he has paid nearly 200K in child support. I think he has more than paid his due’s yet while they investigate the FTT’s statement they are harassing him for the seven weeks of maintenance that they say is due, even threatening to put a DOE on him!! The PWC has all the power the NRP has to triple prove any fact.

  229. Pmg says:

    You have my profound sympathise.
    The current system feels like robbery.
    Changes need to be made,
    1 payments should be based on fathers net not gross income and
    2 in come from father should be used in calculating mothers benefits entitlement so she is not doubly incentivised.

  230. Garry says:

    The law is skewed .As you say Marylyn: ” fathers who cannot or will not do the right thing by their children, nor of single mothers in need” there are plenty of single fathers in need (I was one of them for 15 years) and most single mothers are not actually in need. I was a resident ‘parent’ (in CSA speak read ‘father’) who received not one penny from the non-resident parent. After I contacted the CSA press office to ask how many mothers pay the CSA to support their children who are resident with the father I was told its about 1% of claimants. This is factually incorrect. The basic system is fixed. If the father is a resident parent he gets nothing. If he’s forced out of his home he gets nothing. 6 men a day kill themselves and this is the principle reason. Its rigged and is a ponzy scam dreamt up to save the government money but has in fact cost them a lot more. Its our money that’s the problem!

  231. Michael says:

    I pay for a child I never wanted I was not in a relationship with the mother we just had sex a few times.but as she wanted to keep the child my rights go out of the window and as I have been a naughty boy the government agency’s say I will pay for it .the new system includes tax and NI but I don’t see that in my house so why do they ? The system is wrong ! Why can’t we all pay the same as child benefit after all a ton of beans is a tin of beans it doesn’t matter what each other earns ? Also it would save money by cutting all these useless agents from csa/cms when Ben’s fits stop so would your payments would be easier and fairer for all

  232. Proton says:

    Family law and those bestowed with the authority to implement it are probably directly and indirectly responsible for the death of thousands of men .
    Family law exists to serve the ideology that founded it, paradoxically it sustains the antithesis of this ideology.
    So many quite staggering, pernicious anti male, anti child, anti human nature orders are made by judges soaked in this malevolent ideology twinned with pure financial greed.
    For many years, judges, social workers, cafcass officers have known that the empirical evidence relating to fatherlessness, divorce has caused such devastating consequences for the well being of children. Yet with proclivity they ignore the evidence and with their orders inflict on men and children torture that no human should be expected to withstand, furthermore society itself through cultural Marxism has normalised this malevolence
    The antidote to this injustice will only be dispensed when we rid our culture of Marxism by sanding away it’s remnants found in postmodernism.
    Women need to be held accountable for the actions they willingly partake in.
    Stop all government handouts to single mothers, infantalising them predicates bad decision making, promote marriage and educate the nation about the utility off Marriage and how it built civilization. That the meaning of life can be found in sacrifice and responsibility.
    Children are not resilient, this malevolent, now a normative narrative statement destroys lives, it is right to stay together for the children, it’s not about you parents, once you willingly married and willingly had a child your happiness no longer mattered.
    I’m not being naive, I know how difficult relationships are, but life is difficult and the illusion of a better life that society promotes and embodies in divorce is actually a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
    Marriage is not a form of patriarchal oppression, it’s purpose is to stabilise and build society, and it does this by providing a stable environment for the rearing of children.
    divorce in general should be the last resort.

  233. adrian lacey says:

    dont know if anybody can advise me the cms are taking £90 per week from my wage they have not written to me or contacted me at all when i phoned the they told me that it is arrears passed onto them from the csa i do not have any arrears i have kept all my old pay slips proving the payments were taken from my wage every week i have suplied this proof the the cms but they have done nothing i am living now in absolute poverty even going without food what can i do i have written to my mp but not heard anything from her either it seems to me that this is legalised theft i dont have a problem paying for my children even tho my eldest is in full time employment and i have no contact with them

  234. Andy Gee says:

    I had a case with the CSA which closed in 2014. I was told there were no arrears. In June 2017 I received from the CMS a bill for nearly £4k dating from 1995-1999. They say I owe this to the state as my ex was on benefits between those years. I have asked for proof of this which they have said they don’t have time to look into. I told them I paid my ex direct. Their response show us Bank statements. I cant do this as that Bank account was closed in 98. I have tried the ICE and also asked for a tribunal so far the tribunal has been denied. I have been to my MP and nothing. I have shown them a letter from a Senior investigating officer showing any arrears were paid. I was told by the CMS this was a computer error. The CMS also told me the CSA have to look into my case, the CSA say its up to the CMS to do it. Now 20 years later they are doing a DEO of over £300 a month. Oh and my ex admitted I paid her.

  235. Louis Peters says:

    I have just been taken to the child maintenance services and I am single parent myself and I have consistently contributed to my children since 2003 when we split up, I have paid over £40,000 in child maintenance, that does no include every other weekends, I have my children from Friday to Sunday I have 3 children who are now 15, 16, and 18, my 18 year old lives with me. Jan 2018 my two children’s mother decided to close the bank I have been paying money into for the last 15 years, she told my children to tell me, she opened a new bank account with her new surname, she changed this to her mother maiden name. Feb 2018 My daughter messaged me on what’s up to tell me that her mother didn’t want my money, I messaged the mother directly to ask if this was true, no reply, my daughter kept on saying mum doesn’t want your money she wants you to give us the money directly , therefore I told my daughter to ask her mother to put it in writing, I got a note saying the please give the children the money, dated and signed, I said I wanted a formal letter, I received no response, my children’s aunt messaged me in April 2018 to tell me that she has closed the new account she set up in Jan 2018, therefore I do not have a bank account to give her the children’s money and she didn’t send one to me and I ask, no response. My children’s mum saw my mother on the street and told her she doesn’t want my money because she has a job and I wasn’t listening, well I like things done formally but to no avail, therefore from April 2018 I started giving my children money, bank to bank, no cash, if she doesn’t want it I will give it to my children.
    August 2018 to my surprise I get a letter in my post from child maintenance , the children’s mother had paid £20 and taken a case out on me, to think I have been doing the right thing for 15 years, we agreed the amount and I have been paying that and more for my children, and to be brought into an unfair system that doesn’t take into account your circumstances, the question is why now, my son is 15, my daughter is 16 soon 17 and I have been paying.
    I feel it is important to support ones children but the child maintenance service isn’t fair, there process isn’t fit for purpose, I am starting to think did I do the right thing all these years and one shouldn’t think like this but dealing with the CMS is really frustrating.

  236. S. Carter says:

    How to take the CMS /CMA / CMA to task by means of legal action?

    No-one should be immune for fraud and maladministration.

    I was named as a father from someone I was not married to, nor in a relationship with. 2014.

    I requested a DNA test through the CSA / CMS and the case was closed, by the person making claim

    Fast forward 2016 another claim was made by the same person. I had not received any communication prior to a garnishment known as a DEO being processed by my payroll documented on payslip as a CO (court order).

    Ironically my first (and only) child was due the same week, finances stretched circa £600 garnishment leaving me £1400.

    After obtaining further details from my employer I contacted the CMS department to find out what was going on. The same person had made a new claim.

    I have not received any letter from you before this deduction. You must have…I can assure you I have not….the telephone operator confirmed they had in their possession the unopened letters that had supposedly sent.

    What evidence has this person given you? None.

    Have you checked the birth certificate? No.

    Can you (I) provide us with evidence that your not the father? How on earth can I do this, surely if someone is making a claim and allegations they would need to provide some sort of evidence? No.

    Are you willing to take a DNA test, better than paying money for 18 years for a child that’s not yours.

    Yes I agree, however you have taken money that is accounted for and left me at a deficit, explaining my current situation.

    I agree to undertake a DNA test.

    I become a father (amazing experience).

    No further correspondence received, no DNA test.

    Garnishment continues.

    Calls made (recorded as consented) and letter sent recorded delivery.

    Refusal to apply any lawful process, any legal process and or any coherent customer service.

    Fraud and malpractice, no due process.

    Had to stop working after 22 years as I was unable to pay for fuel to commute.

    MP contacted and request that all communication be facilitated through my MP. 3 to 6 months per MP response which are incoherent.

    Simply, please provide proof of liability…I have never been in a relationship with this person…I have asked and agreed to DNA test of which naturally requires consent.

    Shockingly, response received via MP that a decision was made to go on a previous DNA test. And apologies for not informing me.

    Great…please provide me with a copy of this DNA test. (Can’t be me because I’ve never had a DNA test).

    No response. Letters detailing bank garnishment, and threats of imprisonment if I don’t pay x amount.

    Suicidal and depressed having sought help I’m still alive.
    How is this unlawful harassment and fraud to be tackled?


  237. Victor says:

    CSA will always maintained they secure money for children but at whose expenses, no normal father will neglect or failed to maintain his or her children but as far as CSA is concerned they deal with paying fathers as debtors not an equal parents that have other things to contribute to the life of their children the fact that there is never a provision for a paying father to get regular contact or statements of how his hard earned money is been spend shows the utter contempt this agency have for paying father. And that’s the reason why a lot of paying father default on payments because after making payments they still have no say in anything and nobody like anyone telling them how they must spend their hard earned wages regardless of who is involve if l work like a slave l should have priority not some women that have multiple children from dead beat fathers and they only have the one paying for everyone’s mistake. I haven’t meet yet any happy paying parents whether a man or woman and why is that if the CSA are doing such a helpful work both parents in most case instead of CSA and DWP keeping people in work they actually drive them away with their dictatorship style and threats of bankruptcy, prison, it’s no wonder majority of payoping fathers are depressed and sucidal and some case killl their ex in frustration. CSA in my opinion means Child Separation Agency. They do more harm to families than good the only parents that like them are the evil, twisted and spiteful ones.

  238. Emilia Walker says:

    It should be helpful for both.

  239. Danny says:

    The system is nothing more than a very well organised debt generation and debt collection agency, that preys on ignorance and thrives on scare tactics.

    The carnivorous approach adopted has no place in today’s society and is failing welfare of children and their parents.

    But why?

    Imagine a (debt collection) business that could earn 24% from in many instances inflated and fictitious incomes? Add, all manor of (debt collection) charges, £50 a letter’s not bad hey, especially when its computer generated with no return address and unnamed…If only I could send out 100 letters a day for £50….what a lovely job…..

    It’s good to see that all this money goes to kids, because surely it does, after all that is what its all about, the kids right? Welfare of the kids?

  240. John says:

    Im pleased the CSA has been held accountable, i have had the bull spouted to me that I must prove I don’t owe anything, they hit me with a 6 grand bill for a previous period of 2 years while I had been ill with serious mental health issues, when u contacted them they were rude, and obnoxious, as if taking everything personally, claiming I had deliberately avoided paying maintenance, the amount of stresi they put fathers under by tarring us all with the same brush is unacceptable, i had made every effort to pay my maitenance with my ex she refuseduce to give me her bank details and the CSA despite my requests never sent me forms so i could pay them. They are incompetent clowns, who need to discuss with their female employees how to remain emotionally detached from their cases and how to address people in a decent respectful manner. Too many mothers lie to them and use them as a weapon against fathers, i paid my ex every week in cash for 2 years (was stupid I know) and she contacted the CSA and told them I wasn’t paying her. This should never happen and both parties should be given the benefit of the doubt.

  241. Mr T says:

    The myth: dads should pay.
    The logic is most if not all women (parents) work as the government loves to double their tax revenue. To make the loss of the atomic family unit and to make women work like men more palatable they’ve sold them on giving them free money (used to be from the state until the Conservatives changed it to ex-partners) so it was more like a triple win. They get a wage (or tax credits etc) financial support from a new partner and also from ex-partner.

    You’ve all been brainwashed into thinking this is about financial support for children when it’s just another income stream under the guise of “deadbeat dads” when in reality there is probably a couple, yet in typical female fashion, all men are tarred with the same brush.

    The solution is simple
    Retire the CMS and financial abuse of dads and let the parents take on their parental responsibility and sort it out themselves. If some don’t get support tough I’m sure they’ll find another way.

  242. Nick D says:

    I often read how the Child maintenance Service discriminates but has anybody actually looked at the source of the problem.

    The CMS make a calculation based on what you earn. When you receive
    your net income, you pay maintenance from net earnings and of course you pay tax on the earnings going to the resident parent. It makes me laugh at the selfishness of the typical resident parent of today because they expect your money and do not care about what your left with.

    For instance, it would be a violation of a human right to be without a home and clothes. if one man earns £1000 a month for example (Net) and of that amount he has to pay for 3 children he is left with about £600. He can afford rent but cant afford the heating, the food he needs and the fuel to get to work. Although the Resident parent would appeal the child’s right for money, at what point does this become a violation of his right of existence.

    if the resident parent and non resident parent were still in a relationship, bills would be paid first, a warm house and food is critical, not just to children but to everyone (cant discriminate age) so why should the non resident parent be made to go homeless because the government do not allow him basic living before decoctions?

    I am of the view that many non resident parents cant pay because if he does, he would be without a place to live. it should be the disposable income that is shared with children because that’s how it would be if you was living together.

    so please continue providing the cheese strings and yogurts guys, we should also continue to go homeless in the process too. That’s sadly what resident parents (usually mums) expect from us. they couldn’t care if we die so why should the government? .

    Discrimination to dads mostly.

  243. Mr Annoyed says:

    The CMS are killing thousands of innocent men every year, due to lack of care and discrimination by staff members, who are supposed to be impartial. The whole system is corrupt and dysfunctional. Taking the side of many money grabbing lazy women who breed children for no other reason but an income. Leaving hard working genuine normal men on the bread line, while they live in huge 4 and 5 bedroom houses paid for by the state with free council tax and free cars because they pretend to walk with a limp and plead poverty. When they in fact already have far more money (for free) going into their bank accounts, even before the huge maintenance payments, than the poor hard working men have, and then forced to give up almost have of their wages. It should be disbanded and rebuilt with people who realise that they cannot play God with people’s lives and bigots should be prosecuted for forced errors that they make.

  244. Troy says:

    Hi Leo, or anyone interested in doing a collective lawsuit against the CMS/CSA please get in contact i think collectively we can get the agency to be judicial reviewed because the taking of earnings from gross income is completely wrong when we live off of our net pay.

    If you’re seriously interested in coming together to do a judicial review against this appaling agency please get in contact with me.

  245. M W says:

    It is sad to see that in the nearly 3 decades since the introduction of the CSA there is still blatant discrimination against fathers. When I lost my job in 1988 I also lost my home and my three children. I paid child support through the courts even when the two older children came to live with me. I didn’t trust or could afford lawyers and also didn’t know my childrens’ mother was earning considerably more than me. When the CSA was introduced I applied for child support. For two years the CSA made 14 “errors” in their calculations so I received nothing during that time. Then a sympathetic individual gave me copies of the calculations use by the CSA to assess how much I was to pay and be paid. From that I was able to calculate what their next incorrect assessment would be. I informed my MP and the CEO of the CSA and timed the letters to arrive just after their incorrect demand was posted to me. The two managers dealing with the claims were no longer available to speak to on the phone and my children’s mother had to pay their child support. Something she hadn’t calculated on doing when she divorced me.
    This is all water under the bridge now. I emigrated once the two children living with me left home. The sense of entitlement around at that time was overpowering. I have been happily married now for nearly 18 years.

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